Motorsport Off Topic Thread

f you don't like the fact the car was dominant for some of those years, well you're in the wrong sport, and it's not like other driver's never had superior cars in their time either .

Some of those years? Pretty much all his titles and vast majority of his wins were won during the time when Mercedes dominated the field and he only had his teammate(s) to worry about, which makes your stats about poles, wins and podiums even less relevant. No one is denying that he's a great driver and will likely become the most successful driver to date however F1 is a team sport so any claims that one driver is the greatest of them all are very much subjective. I started watching F1 in late 80s and I don't remember any other time when a single team had such a dominant car for this long. Maybe Ferrari in early 2000s but due to work/ life and the fact I dislike Schumacher (for what he did to Hill and Villeneuve) I didn't really follow F1 during that time.
 
So in other words, Hamilton has to win 2-3 times more races per year and perform successfully over a longer period of time compared to drivers of old? ;)
No, it just shows how worthless it is trying to compare drivers of different eras on any level. It's a completely different sport now in nearly every way. The only real similarities to the dawn of F1 is that they (usually) had 4 wheels, a steering wheel and are (primarily) petrol powered. Literally every other aspect of the cars is different now.

The tyres are completely different now (bias-ply vs radial), the gearboxes (fully manual vs automatic vs semi-automatic), the engines (normally aspirated, supercharged, turbocharged, hybrid, vastly different displacement), the steering (hydraulic now), the safety factor (F1 drivers used to be surrounded by fuel tanks either side of them in flimsy light metal and the fact most didn't even wear seatbelts until the 70s as it was deemed safer to be thrown clear than strapped in the car), the throttle and brakes (fly-by-wire and hydraulic), the sheer number of electronic engine map settings and so on. Don't even get me started on the tracks.



But that's not Hamilton's fault, like I said above it just shows he performs week in week out, at a level above everyone else in his era. Maybe drivers of old did that on race day - but you're just showing me new reasons why Hamilton has excelled them.
Statistically the best in some regards, but that's all. You just can't compare objectively. Hamilton might be the best driver in your opinion, and that's fine, but there is no way to conclusively compare.

For me Clark is the best of all time. Even ignoring some extraordinary performances (like leading from a lap down at Monza of all places), he won in every discipline he entered (while competing in F1) and only finished second once (when he had an engine issue). I can't say he was definitively better than the likes of Fangio, Senna, Schumacher or Hamilton though - it's just an opinion.



Some of those years? Pretty much all his titles and vast majority of his wins were won during the time when Mercedes dominated the field and he only had his teammate(s) to worry about, which makes your stats about poles, wins and podiums even less relevant. No one is denying that he's a great driver and will likely become the most successful driver to date however F1 is a team sport so any claims that one driver is the greatest of them all are very much subjective. I started watching F1 in late 80s and I don't remember any other time when a single team had such a dominant car for this long. Maybe Ferrari in early 2000s but due to work/ life and the fact I dislike Schumacher (for what he did to Hill and Villeneuve) I didn't really follow F1 during that time.
Schumacher had the best car in 4 of those 5 years from 2000 to 2004 (not 2003). Maybe 2006 depending on how highly you rank Alonso's performance.

Mercedes have clearly had the best car from 2014 to 2020 (7 seasons) and the only car/driver combination which got close to toppling them was Vettel and Ferrari in 2017, but across the whole season Mercedes were still better (even at Ferrari's peak in the first half of that season Mercedes had 6 wins to Ferrari's 3).
 
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I love how fragile Hamilton fans are about their boy. I wasn't even criticising Hamilton and yet you leap straight to me being "in denial" about how awesome he is. May God bless y'all...'cause no other bugger would :p
I said you were in denial because you seem intent on proving he is not the best, even statistically. As for the rest of your post I honestly have no idea what you're on about!
Statistically the best in some regards, but that's all. You just can't compare objectively. Hamilton might be the best driver in your opinion, and that's fine, but there is no way to conclusively compare.
You're finally getting my point. You can't compare objectively.. so my point is you can only compare statistically. And statistically Hamilton is the best ever.

To be honest, you could be as blunt to say that the championship is the only important measure of the best driver that year. Therefore it's the only stat that really matters and Hamilton is joint top with 7 of those. End of story?

I'm being deliberately black and white about it, and I am a LH fanboy, but sometimes you know what, I think us Brits are absolutely terrible at praising our own and instead seem intent on dragging them down. I actually went through a period of disliking LH when he seemed more interested in celebrity girlfriends and blaming everything on his race... but the way he has come through that to be a genuinely brilliant role model is just fantastic, and something to be commended. But hey, we can have motorsport fans on here making excuses til the cows come home and calling him 'lulu' etc. lol..
 
**Insert Mother of God meme**

Is that an actual post demonstrating intelligence, common sense and reasonable unbiased opinion???
In an F1 thread???

Completely agree, I think it's safe to come to the conclusion, that whether you like him or not, Lewis is one of the best of his generation, however you really are just wasting your time arguing anything else. As Gav says, there's far too many variables outside of that. And that's ok! There's no reason for people to get but hurt by that.
There are very few sports that I witness such fanaticism over certain people/teams. F1 and Football being the main culprits. I've never quite understood why. I mean I look at other sports that I follow and the fans are so great, they will cheer and support all participants. Yes they have their favourites, but that doesn't stop them from getting behind another participant and celebrating deserved victory.

I won't claim I'm completely innocent when it comes to F1, I strongly dislike redbull as a team. However, when a team is as openly toxic as they are, it's difficult to like them. I like and would be happy to see most drivers succeed, yes there are drivers that I prefer but that wouldn't stop me being happy for others winning. The result at Monza is a perfect example, not the driver I wanted to win, but what a fairytale ending, and I couldn't be happier for Ric.
 
Carrying on the discussion from here as per EVH's suggestion as it's a relatively healthy discussion for once.


You're finally getting my point. You can't compare objectively.. so my point is you can only compare statistically. And statistically Hamilton is the best ever.

To be honest, you could be as blunt to say that the championship is the only important measure of the best driver that year. Therefore it's the only stat that really matters and Hamilton is joint top with 7 of those. End of story?

That's the point of my earlier post, even statistically you can't compare. Ascari, Fangio and Clark's entire F1 careers barely lasted even as long as the number or years Mercedes has been dominant (Ascari 5 seasons, Fangio 7 and Clark 8).

Or rather statistically you can compare, but there are still so many caveats that it's little more than a footnote itself. I mean some people think Gilles Villeneuve was the best driver of all time, some Ronnie Petersen, and neither of them even won a championship!
 
Statistically Hamilton is the best if you look purely at race wins but as many have said it’s a nigh on impossible task to rank drivers from the dawn of the F1 era due to the massively changing technical regulations, low number of races and changing rules over the decades. He’s certainly up there with the very best, but it’s an impossible task to rank anyone into a realistic ranking or order.
 
Statistically Hamilton is the best if you look purely at race wins but as many have said it’s a nigh on impossible task to rank drivers from the dawn of the F1 era due to the massively changing technical regulations, low number of races and changing rules over the decades. He’s certainly up there with the very best, but it’s an impossible task to rank anyone into a realistic ranking or order.

Yup, there are very few sports that are easy(ish) to rank competitors from all eras. From top of my head I can only think of running and swimming as they're individual sports with little technological advancement to help. Even then, things like diet and improved training/ rest techniques will give current athletes advantage over those 20-30 years ago.
 
Yup, there are very few sports that are easy(ish) to rank competitors from all eras. From top of my head I can only think of running and swimming as they're individual sports with little technological advancement to help. Even then, things like diet and improved training/ rest techniques will give current athletes advantage over those 20-30 years ago.
An enthusiastic club runner would likely win a pre war olympics event purely down to training, diet and equipment.
 
I said you were in denial because you seem intent on proving he is not the best, even statistically.

Oh, absolutely. That's presumably why I said he was "about the best of his generation".

*sideways glance*

As for the rest of your post I honestly have no idea what you're on about!

I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

Seriously, read up on the history of the sport.

You're finally getting my point. You can't compare objectively.. so my point is you can only compare statistically. And statistically Hamilton is the best ever.

By some measures yes, by some not yet (and some never will be, given that he's not going to spend ten years winning every race held). Which was part of my point!

To be honest, you could be as blunt to say that the championship is the only important measure of the best driver that year. Therefore it's the only stat that really matters and Hamilton is joint top with 7 of those. End of story?

Sure, if you want to limit 'best driver' to mean 'won most F1 championships'.

I'm being deliberately black and white about it

Aaaaaaand the problem makes itself known.

and I am a LH fanboy

Gosh, I'd never have guessed.

but sometimes you know what, I think us Brits are absolutely terrible at praising our own and instead seem intent on dragging them down. I actually went through a period of disliking LH when he seemed more interested in celebrity girlfriends and blaming everything on his race... but the way he has come through that to be a genuinely brilliant role model is just fantastic, and something to be commended. But hey, we can have motorsport fans on here making excuses til the cows come home and calling him 'lulu' etc. lol..

As for this bit of your post I honestly have no idea what you're on about!

/ironicecho
 
Yay quote wars.
Oh he's just proving my point on why I really hope LH wins the 8th. Because people like that can grump in the corner of the pub to anyone that will listen for 3hrs straight on why XXXX driver is actually the best that ever lived because they did one lap one time at Monza and nearly died but didn't and then overtook Senna and Schumacher on an impossible corner when the engine was turned down and they had 3 wheels and no brakes and a pink helmet... or some such nonsense. Aaaaaand everyone else will just go "yeah but LH won 8 championships so what are you on about?"

Seriously, let's just celebrate we're witnessing one-of-the* greatest ever drivers in the sport, in our lifetime. And he's British. And has come from nothing, relative to the millionaires that take up all of the other drives. So let's enjoy it rather than trying to come up with every convoluted idea on why some other driver has beaten him on some minor stat that's more suited to the sport of the 1970s.

*See, I even put "one of the" to keep the deniers happy ;)
 
Seriously, let's just celebrate we're witnessing one-of-the* greatest ever drivers in the sport, in our lifetime. And he's British.
I think we can all agree he one of the greatest.

As for being British I'm not that closed minded. I like plenty of British F1 drivers and I'm more likely to be a fan of theirs if they're British, but they don't have to be British for me to like or appreciate them. I'm not really a fan of anyone in particular anymore to be honest.
 
Scam. People like you are the reason everyone has to counter with all this rubbish.
You're completely blinkered. Offended if someone doesn't share your view. And also not super smart apparently.
lol ok calm down deary, that's quite a jump there :rolleyes: I'm not offended by anyone... It's people like you, JRS and gav that puts everyone off the sport. Trying to give lectures about learning the intricate history of the sport before you're allowed an opinion, honestly get over yourselves...
 
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