MTB hardtail frames - 'hardcore XC'

ALLI · 11 Nov 2007 at 20:53

ichabod crane said:
personally only forks to have are fox or pace! no competition in my eyes. not keen on that maxlight its ugly, i dont think you can go far wrong with the P7 its a lovely bike and well kitted out. My offer remains open if your ever up here have a lovely nature reserve behind me house you can have a test ride on

For a beginner I'd say Rockshox are ideal. Pace forks are fiddly and temptamental. Fox forks are a bit pricey. RockShox just work, week in week out.

I also think Orange bikes are pricey. Great frames but the finishing kit isn't too hot. IMO there are better deals.

glitch · 11 Nov 2007 at 21:14

ichabod crane said:
personally only forks to have are fox or pace! no competition in my eyes. not keen on that maxlight its ugly, i dont think you can go far wrong with the P7 its a lovely bike and well kitted out. My offer remains open if your ever up here have a lovely nature reserve behind me house you can have a test ride on

That Pha5e is ugly, mainly because of the 'battleship grey' colour. I much prefer the 'anti-radar green' offering:

Sounds like you live in a lovely little area, ichabod. Real nice.

ALLI said:
How bout a Pace?

Built this myself...

The frame's about £200 over my budget and I think I could do better for cheaper. I've seen a Pace up-close and wasn't blown away with the quality, although I hear they ride especially well.

ALLI said:
I also think Orange bikes are pricey. Great frames but the finishing kit isn't too hot. IMO there are better deals.

You think so? Great! Here's your challenge. Find me a better bike than the P7 Pro with the Fox Vanilla RLC forks. You've got around £1,300 to play with.

ALLI · 11 Nov 2007 at 22:29

The Pace rides SO well. I sold an S-works Enduro to build this up and I don't regret a thing. Full sus is not for me. Quality wise, no issues. Early models had paint flake, especially the black one. Not a problem now. Did I say it rides well?

27lb for a hardtail that can be thrashed, dropped, raced. It does it all, for me.

As for picking a bike..TBH it's down to how the bike feels to you. I could spec you all manner of hardcore hardtails, but you need to test it.

How bout something like this:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=14971

# Frame: B1 Xtrolite
# Forks: Rockshox Reba Team
# Front Der: Shimano XTR M970
# Rear Der: Shimano XTR M971
# Shifters: Shimano XTR M970
# Brakes: Avid juicy 7
# Cranks: Truvativ Stylo
# BB: Truvativ
# Handlebar: Ritchey WCS
# Stem: Ritchey WCS
# Seatpost: Ritchey WCS
# Saddle: B1 Cr Mo
# Hubs:
# Cassette: Shimano M760
# Chain: Shimano HG93
# Rims: Ritchey WCS XS Disc
# Tyres: Maxxis Larssen

RRP £1699... Price £1249

Find a decent LBS and badger them.

ALLI · 11 Nov 2007 at 22:33

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=14939

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=14934

Compare the kit list of these bikes, then look at what Orange give you as their package.

Oh, and if you STILL want the P7 Pro, JE James is doing it for £1079. That leaves you cash for pedals, shoes, helmet, lights, DECENT locks, pump, multitool and shock pump.

ichabod crane · 12 Nov 2007 at 18:47

is a be-one really in the same league as the bikes that have been mentioned so far.

glitch · 12 Nov 2007 at 19:51

ALLI said:
The Pace rides SO well. I sold an S-works Enduro to build this up and I don't regret a thing. Full sus is not for me. Quality wise, no issues. Early models had paint flake, especially the black one. Not a problem now. Did I say it rides well? 27lb for a hardtail that can be thrashed, dropped, raced. It does it all, for me.

I look at the Pace and I look at other frames and I see very little that justifies the extra money. The Orange Crush has very similar geometry and comes in at £130 less than the Pace, as does the Pha5e. Still yet to be blown away by the Pace, but I appreciate your devotion to it!

ALLI said:
As for picking a bike..TBH it's down to how the bike feels to you. I could spec you all manner of hardcore hardtails, but you need to test it.

Well, crack on then!

ALLI said:
How bout something like this:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=14971

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=14939

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=14934

I think we're straying away from my original want of a singletrack weapon - this is firmly XC racer territory.

ALLI said:
Compare the kit list of these bikes, then look at what Orange give you as their package.

I'm not seeing the amazing VFM that you're seeing I'm afraid. All the cash seems to be going on the components, which still don't blow the P7 Pro's spec away for me.

ALLI said:
Oh, and if you STILL want the P7 Pro, JE James is doing it for £1079. That leaves you cash for pedals, shoes, helmet, lights, DECENT locks, pump, multitool and shock pump.

Alas, not in stock and not in my size.

ALLI · 13 Nov 2007 at 16:49

glitch said:
I look at the Pace and I look at other frames and I see very little that justifies the extra money. The Orange Crush has very similar geometry and comes in at £130 less than the Pace, as does the Pha5e. Still yet to be blown away by the Pace, but I appreciate your devotion to it!

Well, crack on then!

I think we're straying away from my original want of a singletrack weapon - this is firmly XC racer territory.

I'm not seeing the amazing VFM that you're seeing I'm afraid. All the cash seems to be going on the components, which still don't blow the P7 Pro's spec away for me.

Alas, not in stock and not in my size.

Have you seen the magazine and reader awards the Pace has got? Singletrack best hardtail, WMB best hardtail etc etc.... Perhaps you're looking at something they cant see. As I said, it's not how a bike looks, it's how it feels to YOU.

What I liked about the Pace. Well, regardless of price, it felt good to ride. I can have the forks at 130mm for coming down big steep hills, rock gardens etc, or wind them down to 100mm and locked off on the road. Either way, they bike just felt right for me. I feel a lot more connected and in control than I did on 2.5k's worth of full suspension, plus I don't have the hassle of tuning the rear shock, replacing bearings and bushings etc. The rear end of the Pace is actually quite forgiving and there's a decent amount of flex in the seat stays and chain stays which make for a very comfy ride. I've popped out in the summer for half hours blast and ended up 20 miles along a canal, with a grin from ear to ear. The way I saw it, 450 for the frame was fine - it's the foundation of a decent bike. All the other bits can be upgraded as and when. When you find the right frame for you, you'll keep it, and it's worth the cash. I've also got a 97 GT Zaskar which is set up fully rigid and with slicks and that's a blast too. Best of both worlds.

On the flip, what is it that you like about the Orange?

Are you gonna build yourself if you can?

ALLI · 13 Nov 2007 at 16:51

Log on here and ask. Lovely bunch of guys and they will be able to help you.

http://uk-mtb.com/index.php

ALLI · 13 Nov 2007 at 16:56

Merlin do a Ti bike for a little over a grand with full XT kit IIRC.

ALLI · 13 Nov 2007 at 17:10

What frame material do you want btw?

ALLI · 13 Nov 2007 at 17:19

BeOne Team XTR £1049

# Frame: B1 Xtrolite
# Forks: Rockshox Reba Team
# Front Der: Shimano XTR M970
# Rear Der: Shimano XTR M971
# Shifters: Shimano XTR M970
# Brakes: Avid juicy 7
# Cranks: Truvativ Stylo
# BB: Truvativ
# Handlebar: Ritchey WCS
# Stem: Ritchey WCS
# Seatpost: Ritchey WCS
# Saddle: B1 Cr Mo
# Hubs:
# Cassette: Shimano M760
# Chain: Shimano HG93
# Rims: Ritchey WCS XS Disc
# Tyres: Maxxis Larssen

You said "I'm not seeing the amazing VFM that you're seeing I'm afraid. All the cash seems to be going on the components, which still don't blow the P7 Pro's spec away for me."

Orange P7 Pro 2008 £1199
Drivetrain:
Shifters: Xt Rf+
Front Derailleur: Xt
Rear Derailleur: Xt Shadow
Cassette: Sram Pg950
Crankset: Race Face Xc Evolve, X Type

Components:
Saddle: Sdg Bel Air
Seatpost: Stick Up
Handlebars: Supercross +
Stem: Orange Stalk +
Headset: Th 857
Brake Levers: Hope
Brakes: Avid Juicy 3 185/160, Hydraulic
Pedals: Flat
Fork: Fox 32 Vanilla R, 140mm
Fork Colour: Black Diamond
Wheels:
Hubs: Hope Pro 2 Disc
Rims: Wtb Speeddisc Am
Tyres: Continental Speed King 2.3

FAR better spec on the BeOne, and, dare I say it, a much better, lighter frame. XTR is a higher groupy than XT, and the Orange has a few "own brand" parts.

Hence the VFM

ALLI · 13 Nov 2007 at 17:27

Last post...

Cove handjob: 330 from wiggle
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?Cat=cycle&ProdID=5360023067&N=Cove Handjob XC Frame

Dialled bikes Prince Albert £240
http://www.dialledbikes.com/products/mtb/princealbert.html

HeadlessChicken · 13 Nov 2007 at 18:10

Really no need to worry too much about steel frames and rust as long as it's kept in dry conditions. If you are worried you can get this stuff:

http://shop.18bikes.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s379p39

That's what I used, and no signs of vent hole rust yet

And it's such a shame what they have done to the HandJob's, they used to be such nice looking frames.

ALLI · 13 Nov 2007 at 19:00

ichabod crane said:
is a be-one really in the same league as the bikes that have been mentioned so far.

It's an extremely light and well made German frame.

By same league, do you mean "if someone looks at my bike, they wont have heard of the brand and will assume it's rrrrrrrubbish?"

It's a good bike, but not quite hardcore enough for the OP. TBF, it is an XC bike. Whack a Specialized sticker on it and more people will consider it.

glitch · 13 Nov 2007 at 20:57

ALLI said:
Have you seen the magazine and reader awards the Pace has got? Singletrack best hardtail, WMB best hardtail etc etc.... Perhaps you're looking at something they cant see. As I said, it's not how a bike looks, it's how it feels to YOU.

Listen, I've had just about enough of you now. Stop recommending the Pace. You're making me start to consider one.

In all seriousness, I have seen the reviews, I've seen the awards it has won, the tests it has aced and the numerous glowing reports on it. It's just a hell of a lot of money and I'm not sure it's worth it. Of course, worth is completely relative, and until I've ridden one and ridden it well I'm merely speculating.

ALLI said:
What I liked about the Pace. Well, regardless of price, it felt good to ride. I can have the forks at 130mm for coming down big steep hills, rock gardens etc, or wind them down to 100mm and locked off on the road. Either way, they bike just felt right for me. I feel a lot more connected and in control than I did on 2.5k's worth of full suspension, plus I don't have the hassle of tuning the rear shock, replacing bearings and bushings etc. The rear end of the Pace is actually quite forgiving and there's a decent amount of flex in the seat stays and chain stays which make for a very comfy ride. I've popped out in the summer for half hours blast and ended up 20 miles along a canal, with a grin from ear to ear.

Arrrrgh, stop it!

ALLI said:
The way I saw it, 450 for the frame was fine - it's the foundation of a decent bike. All the other bits can be upgraded as and when. When you find the right frame for you, you'll keep it, and it's worth the cash.

Well, we'd be talking around £550 for the frame now that the RC305 is out and it's available in anodised black... Which is nice.

ALLI said:
On the flip, what is it that you like about the Orange?

I like the frame, I like the spec and I like the general look of the bike. I had a pootle around on a 17" at the LBS and while it was horrendously cramped, it really felt like a nicely put together steed. The problem I've got with those Be-One bikes is I'm seriously worried about the frames. My comment about the VFM was mainly directed at the fact that 90% of your money seems to be going on the components and the frame, to me, seems like something to hang it all off. I'm a bit wary, which is purely a fear of the unknown.

ALLI said:
Are you gonna build yourself if you can?

It depends on what I eventually go for. It's a possibility.

ALLI said:
Log on here and ask. Lovely bunch of guys and they will be able to help you.

http://uk-mtb.com/index.php

Will do, thanks for that.

ALLI said:
What frame material do you want btw?

Not at all bothered. Have been considering both steel and alu so far.

ALLI said:
Cove handjob: 330 from wiggle
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?Cat=cycle&ProdID=5360023067&N=Cove Handjob XC Frame

Dialled bikes Prince Albert £240
http://www.dialledbikes.com/products/mtb/princealbert.html

I've considered the Handjob but never heard of Dialled until your post. One to look into methinks.

ALLI · 14 Nov 2007 at 01:16

Sorry :s Don't mean to add to the confusion.

But here's a few more frames to Google....

Stiffee, BFe, PA, mythic scirocco, surly instigator, chameleon, sinister ridge, evil sov, orange subzero, cromag samurai

ALLI · 14 Nov 2007 at 23:09

Glitch, drop me a line when you see this message.

My Pace is going onto eBay due to pressure from the financial controller (ie, the missus). We can chat "bizness" if ya like.

ALLI · 14 Nov 2007 at 23:12

glitch said:
This is a medium-size frame, hence the slightly squashed appearance:

Hardcore hardtails are small looking. It's because of their do it all ability. Pace recommend a 400mm seat post so you can have it high for XC, lower for downhill work, and right down for 4x and dirt jumping.

glitch · 18 Nov 2007 at 17:51

ALLI said:
Sorry :s Don't mean to add to the confusion.

But here's a few more frames to Google....

Excellent stuff. I've had a good Google and my thoughts are...

ALLI said:
Stiffee

Cove Stiffee? Possible but I'm going way over budget with that and I'm not sure I'm 100% keen on the frame. Test rode one for a short while and was impressed, but the frame was a few weeks old and had already started shedding massive bits of paint. A common problem, I believe?

ALLI said:
BFe

Cotic BFe? Maybe too hardcore. Seems more 4X and jumping than a singletrack bike.

ALLI said:
PA

Dialled Bikes Price Albert? Loving the looks, loving the geometry and loving the price. However, I'm also loving their upcoming Alpine frame which seems a bargain for £300 when you consider the geometry and tubing being used.

ALLI said:
mythic scirocco

God I like the look of this frame. No idea about how it would ride, but it's a beauty. Reviews seem to show it's got a very rigid rear end though. Matron.

ALLI said:
surly instigator

Too much of a jump bike for normal use.

ALLI said:
chameleon

Too expensive when considering the competition. Not a fan of the '08 frame either.

ALLI said:
sinister ridge

Interesting but can't find it on sale other than in weeny little sizes.

ALLI said:
evil sov

How much?!

ALLI said:
orange subzero

I prefer the Crush to this as it's a little more of an all-rounder.

ALLI said:
cromag samurai

How much?! Ugly bugger too.