Muhammad Ali V Rocky Marciano.

Ali done Foreman when Foreman was in his prime and throwing punches like popeye. Something like 4 out of 30 of Foremans fights never even went the distance as he knocked everyone out.
If i remember correctly this was when the phrase Rope a Dope was coined.
Ali done Foreman and i believe he would have done Tyson in the same way. Tyson was like a bull in a china shop from the get go. Within 6 rounds he would be dead on his fight and Ali could punch and punch often and hard.
At the time Ali was also considered to be past his best. :p
 
rayb74 said:
Ali good fighter but also a show man and a con in the ring look at the controversy surrounding the rumble in the jungle, Foreman was stitched good and proper.
My verdict, Tyson would have destroyed both of them in his prime before he destroyed himself (with the help of that moron King).
Click to expand...

A showman definitely but with the talent to back that up, he was certainly no con.

As for the fight in 1974 against Foreman, there was a lot of controversy but Ali saw that Foreman was slow and relied on power punches in the early rounds such as when he took out Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. He also saw that Foreman did not have the stamina for a stand up and drawn out fight and Ali chose to wear him out by using his rope-a-dope tactic and allowed Foreman to punch himself out.

As for a con you mention, the fact Ali was peeing blood after the fight from taking body punches from Foreman ..... a con ?

I would say, much as I like him, Tyson is more the con.
 
I think the last thing tyson is, is a con. People just seem to forget what he was a remember the joke he became. I remember seeing a docu once where they slowed down his hand and foot speed and compared it to ali. He was faster.

The tyson just before the prison incident and onwards couldnt have got near ali. He wouldve punched himself out inside of 3 rounds trying to get near him. Prior to that tyson was actually a very good athlete. People forget that and only remember him punching for 3-6 rounds and quitting in his later years.

Tyson shouldve gone on to be greatest of all time, sadly his pigeons have bigger brains.
 
dannyjo22 said:
I think the last thing tyson is, is a con. People just seem to forget what he was a remember the joke he became. I remember seeing a docu once where they slowed down his hand and foot speed and compared it to ali. He was faster.

The tyson just before the prison incident and onwards couldnt have got near ali. He wouldve punched himself out inside of 3 rounds trying to get near him. Prior to that tyson was actually a very good athlete. People forget that and only remember him punching for 3-6 rounds and quitting in his later years.

Tyson shouldve gone on to be greatest of all time, sadly his pigeons have bigger brains.
Click to expand...

Tyson came along in 1985 when the heavyweight division was crap. Ali had retired as had Frazier, Foreman etc and the only world class heavyweight there was larry Holmes, 35 years old, although despite the running joke between Big Kev and I, Holmes rates hugely in my book. As for the quicker than Ali documentary, I would like to see that as I don't believe it for a second although that isn't a go at you. I have never seen a flurry of punches by Tyson that is quicker than Ali taking out Brian London. I don't doubt Tyson's hand speed though, it was fast. Very fast.

Mike Tyson swept aside heavyweights of the day such as Berbick, Thomas, Holmes and Spinks but the first sign of his myth of invincibility was when Frank Bruno rattled him and showed that Tyson could be hurt. Tyson later said he had never been hit so hard.

He was a superb athlete though and the inactivity between 1992 and 1995 undoubtedly made him rusty and his private life stopped him becoming the heavyweight legend he should have been. A legend no doubt but he could have been more.

Tyson was always flustered by fighters he couldn't get near and he was outclassed in the opening rounds in 1988 when Holmes fought him. Larry Holmes jabbed his head off with what is still the most sublime jab of all the heavyweights but age took it's toll. Tyson was 22 years old and Holmes 35.

Although older, Tyson got flustered when he couldn't get near Holyfield and payed the price and I believe that Ali would have toyed with him for 12 rounds. Ali went in with bigger hitters than Tyson such as Foreman and Earnie Shavers and they couldn't land the blows to end it and when Ali fought Shavers he was in his mid thirties.
 
Last edited:
It`s a real shame that heavyweight boxing has over the last few years developed into such a sad state of affairs, governed by the gangstas match fixers and money men. At least we can still go back in time and watch some of the great fights of the past.

Tyson was the most awesome explosive talent when he bust on to the scene and so much more could have become of him I think if it wasn`t for Cus D`amatos untimely death and the start of his decline. Yes OK most of his first opponents were just cannon fodder but this is the same for most boxers.

P.S. Tyson was faster and harder than the dancer / punchbag Ali.
Ali would use every little dirty trick in the book to gain an advantage and I PERSONALLY think he used enhancements.
 
Last edited:
Von Smallhausen said:
Mike Tyson swept aside heavyweights of the day such as Berbick, Thomas, Holmes and Spinks but the first sign of his myth of invincibility was when Frank Bruno rattled him and showed that Tyson could be hurt. Tyson later said he had never been hit so hard.

He was a superb athlete though and the inactivity between 1992 and 1995 undoubtedly made him rusty and his private life stopped him becoming the heavyweight legend he should have been. A legend no doubt but he could have been more.

Tyson was always flustered by fighters he couldn't get near and he was outclassed in the opening rounds in 1988 when Holmes fought him. Larry Holmes jabbed his head off with what is still the most sublime jab of all the heavyweights but age took it's toll. Tyson was 22 years old and Holmes 35.

Although older, Tyson got flustered when he couldn't get near Holyfield and payed the price and I believe that Ali would have toyed with him for 12 rounds. Ali went in with bigger hitters than Tyson such as Foreman and Earnie Shavers and they couldn't land the blows to end it and when Ali fought Shavers he was in his mid thirties.
Click to expand...

But that is again looking at tyson from a post prison phase. I dont think he was flustered against holmes at all. Just took a little time to get going.

Foreman and shavers MAY have been harder hitters than tyson but not in such devastating combo's or with the same speed.

As for the bruno bit earlier in the post, so what he got rocked once. Bruno was no pansy in the punch power division. Difference is Tyson stayed up Ali went down when hit by Cooper ;)

In tysons post prison fights or even against douglas he had an amazing chin. He took big whuppings. I dont see ali troubling tysons chin at all. I also dont think thats why holmes jab bothered him, he was quite happy to take a few to work his way inside.

I'm not ******* on your theory, like mine it's just my thoughts on the matter, If It sounds abrubt I dont mean it too :)
 
In Tysons' defence i have to say that it was only because Mike considered Bruno a friend that he was able to land that punch.
I honestly feel that until that punch Tyson was almost gentle with frank. I've watched the fight time and time again and i still think that Tyson wasn't angry with Frank till he hit him with that shot. Once hit with that shot Tyson was the same superb animal he was an battered Frank like the mummys boy he was.

Don't get me wrong there but fighters like Bruno and Lewis were just that fighters. Tyson was an Animal cut from the same mould as earlier bare knuckle fighters.
Personally i love the way he changed from the boxing club freak and teased fighter during the olympics into the Undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.
As a point of fact it was Lewis that ridiculed Tyson for being short and they even called him deformed because of his neck. Literally outcast by the "in crowd" which was Lewis. I hate that kind of crap and i hate Lewis with a vengeance.
 
I would have said Marciano with a KO in the last 3rd of the fight. Why might you ask?

Well I have studied a lot of Marcianos fights and the guy had a never say die gung ho attitude to fighting. Ultimately my decision was made by the following comments....

"In the ring, I never really knew fear."

"I believe, in my prime, I could have fought with anybody alive."

"What would be better than walking down any street in any city and knowing you’re a champion?"
 
Marciano is recognised as the hardest hitter in the game, the ONLY undefeated champion at any weight, and the best knockout ratio of any heavyweight boxer in history. Not bad for a boxer who would look like a midget compared to todays heavy weights and would probably destroy them.
Tyson reminded me of a Marciano type of fighter but with a lot more actual boxing skill. I think the downfall of Tyson is one of the biggest let downs in heavyweight boxing history, to think of what he could have become really annoys me but hey as the saying goes **** happens !
 
rayb74 said:
Marciano is recognised as the hardest hitter in the game, the ONLY undefeated champion at any weight, and the best knockout ratio of any heavyweight boxer in history. Not bad for a boxer who would look like a midget compared to todays heavy weights and would probably destroy them.
Tyson reminded me of a Marciano type of fighter but with a lot more actual boxing skill. I think the downfall of Tyson is one of the biggest let downs in heavyweight boxing history, to think of what he could have become really annoys me but hey as the saying goes **** happens !
Click to expand...

Hate to pick apart your post which I do agree with the Tyson part of it but;

1. I don't agree that he is recognised as the hardest hitter in the history of boxing.. He did hit hard but I still don't believe that he was the hardest puncher in boxing.... I'd say Shavers (who incidently has a higher KO percentage) hit harder than Marciano. Or maybe Foreman

2. He also is not the only champion to retire undefeated (at any weight, heavyweight maybe), maybe back then but not now with the many 'recognised' world titles (IBF, WBA & WBC and to a lesser extent the WBO).

3. Wladimir Kltischko has a better knockout percentage than Marciano. (Shavers & Foreman both have better KO percentages too.... Also there is sure to be more than just those 3)
 
Smit, the comments were general. If you want to knit pick and pick out details of a useless latterday heavyweight then so be it.

I am not going to start to quote and link the references to Just about every heavyweight and boxing critic who rate Marciano as the hardest hitter ever.

O.K. heres a link ;)

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047//Rock3.html

Read the comments at the end. POUND for POUND you tell me someone who hits harder EVERY punch !! The guy was mean fighting machine, Just like Arnie in the first Terminator :p :p
 
Last edited:
The site you linked is wrong ;)

Rocky Marciano - 49 Wins (43 KOs) = 87.8%
George Foreman - 76 Wins (68 KOs) = 89.5%

You may be able to find some critics who rate Marciano as the hardest hitter but I am positive that you could find just as much (most likely even more) who disagree (Ali & Holmes are two of whom say Shavers was the hardest hitter. The RING also rank Shavers ahead of Marciano but then again they do say Joe Louis is the hardest puncher ever).

I wouldn't call Shavers useless (Klitschko yeah he is useless) he wasn't great but he wasn't that bad, just didn't have a great chin or great stamina but he was in an era which is recognised as the best period of Heavyweight (and possibly Boxing in general) boxing with the likes of Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Liston....
 
My comment wasn`t directed at Ernie ;)

I once again stress that you seem to forget that Marciano weighed just over 180 lbs !

lb for lb he`s the hardest hitting, toughest Heavy weight ever. (Bar the old school bare knuckle boxers)

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047//tough.html

Read the bit about him getting a split nose and then being told by his corner to wipe the guy out before the fight got stopped !

I also remember seeing a photo of I think, Marciano punching someone so hard that their feet were off the floor ! ( I can`t find photo anywhere now)

Anyway each to their own opinion, but I am sure we both would agree that Heavyweight boxing today is pretty much a farce and nothing like the "Old days".
 
Marciano was not un-defeated either. He fought one professional fight as rocky mack in his early days which he lost to coley wallace. He then went back to the amatuers.

Another reason I doubt he wouldve beaten Ali is because he was dirty. Throw a punch and if you miss follow through with the elbow. Hw wouldve been thrown out.

He was also saved a beating against Archie Moore who was rumoured to be about 40, no one knew for sure. Moore dropped Rocky, Rocky got up groggy straight away. The Ref then stepped in and instead of letting the fight continue where Moore could finish him, let Rocky have a standing 8 to clear his head.

I also doubt he could hit as hard as many heavyweights of the 80's.
 
Von Smallhausen said:
This is basically the fight that never was but in 1970, both fought using a NCR 135 computer to simulate it, the 135 being the most state of the art computer at the time. Marciano won by a knockout but I wonder what the real outcome would have been if both of them had fought in the ring in their prime.
Click to expand...

Just re-read this OP. But thats not strictly true is it. Marciano won when the fight was shown in the white areas of america and Ali won in the black parts.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Marciano was not un-defeated either. He fought one professional fight as rocky mack in his early days which he lost to coley wallace. He then went back to the amatuers.
Click to expand...


You will find that the person that lost was infact his brother. Though I'd still give it to Marciano over Ali a lot of Rockys earlier fights were against tomato cans. He even fought his brother a few times his brother using another ringname for each fight.

What you have to bear in mind is Rocky won the title at fight 43 IIRC and went on to do 6 defenses. Now you can say yes he would have beaten Ali but Ali beat some players that Marciano would have not (Frazier and Foreman). Though I would have thought Ali would struggle a lot against Louis and Walcott so this levels it out.

I must admit Holmes was my favourite heavy for a long time but his mouth seems to get the better of him so he has dropped substantially in my estimations.

Over the years I have seen pretty much every major heavy fight (or read about it) of the last century. And I now have to reshuffle my top 3 heavys as follows.

Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Sam Langford


Love the Langford fight against Bearcat Wright when he came out for the 9th round and touched gloves with Wright. Wright immediatly said 'hey its not the last round yet Langford' To which Langford responded with 'It is for you' 20 seconds later Wright was knocked out.
 
It was not his brother, try reading champions of the rings by gerald suster. A great read on all the greats. As the book says the truth was glossed over because it didnt make such a great story for the white man.

Rocky was fighting at a much lower weight than Ali. I dont believe any 180 pounder would out punch a modern heavy. Rocky was clumsy too and wouldnt have been hit by guys as hard hitting as Ali and others when he missed with his many shots.
 
rayb74 said:
Anyway each to their own opinion, but I am sure we both would agree that Heavyweight boxing today is pretty much a farce and nothing like the "Old days".
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone can disagree with that statement :D

Modern Day Heavyweights are just awful... Can't see the heavyweight division ever getting back to the heights it once was
 
Ali would win, and the fight would look similar to Ali vs Chuvalo, excpet Marciano wouldn't of made it to the final bell imo.

Btw, for all of those who are saying Marciano is the toughest boxer ever, no way. That award goes to George Chuvalo. Best chin ever (apart from maybe Randall Cobb), never dropped in his career.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom