Music/home cinema setup

Adding cost of a good quality amp switcher that doesn't degrade sound quality will probably be pretty expensive though.

So he needs a new avr and a stereo amp, oh and better speakers too lol

I'm on the same page as you, 100%, but it's @One More Solo 's system and money so all we can do is advise.

Personally, I wouldn't waste any money on an amp switcher. As you say, finding one that isn't going to mess up the sound is going to be hard, and that means potentially expensive. What I think I would do as a stop gap is make up some short speaker cable extensions with Z plugs, and make the amp tails shrouded so that it's impossible to create a short. That way the fidelity remains high without spending money that could be going to a better amp/speakers/sub/AVR.

My guess is that the objection will be about getting behind the gear to effect the change-over. There's not a lot that can be done about that other than making the tails long enough to keep the joints accessible.

Edited to correct auto-corrects corrections... lol
 
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I’m on board with the Z plug idea. Feels like a better stopgap until the eventual AVR replacement, as I didn’t appreciate how much impact a switcher could have on sound and potentially makes the other upgrades less worthwhile.
 
Basically like banana plugs disconnect pair when you want to listen to one then reconnect another? Nah

Major pain.

Unless you plan to donate a chunk of cash to @One More Solo to fund a full-on, no-holds-barred system upgrade, then this is real life where sometimes we have to compromise in some or other area to move a project forward.
 
Unless you plan to donate a chunk of cash to @One More Solo to fund a full-on, no-holds-barred system upgrade, then this is real life where sometimes we have to compromise in some or other area to move a project forward.

I can take PayPal or bank transfer. :D

I reckon I can upgrade the AVR to a suitable model relatively cheaply by buying second hand, but my main aim here is to improve my music listening experience and as you say that doesn’t address that at all. It’s something I’ll sort eventually but I think I have a pretty clear plan of the way forward.

Looking at spending £150-200 on a suitable integrated amp. I’m leaning towards the Wharfedale Diamond 220s as new speakers having read a few reviews.
 
I’m on board with the Z plug idea. Feels like a better stopgap until the eventual AVR replacement, as I didn’t appreciate how much impact a switcher could have on sound and potentially makes the other upgrades less worthwhile.

Yeah, I think it's a reasonable solution so long as you can live with swapping the front L & R connections.

Now, about the sub...

If you do end up with a stereo amp that has a set of pre-outs, then those can be used to drive the line level input of the sub. As you probably know, the sound level goes up and down in sync with the volume to the speakers. This is different from what happens with a line out connection where the level is fixed. There are a couple of catches though.

If you're using the line input on the sub, then you're going to have to swap that connection between the stereo amp and the AV amp. The other potential issue is the set-up of the sub. The AV amp is going to work best with the sub's crossover control set to maximum and the volume somewhere around the mid point so that the AVR can take over the audio set-up. The stereo amp is going to need something different. The crossover frequency, the volume are certainly going to need different settings. Unless the sub has a digital crossover with multiple user memories then not only ate you going to have to swap connections, but you'll also need to dial in different settings.

However, I have a potential solution.

There are some subs that have both high-level and low-level inputs, but more than that, they have independent memories for each and the ability to accept signals from both inputs simultaneously. Have you come across this idea before?
 
Why not source a used higher end AVR, avforums always has stuff going through the classifieds.
 
Why not source a used higher end AVR, avforums always has stuff going through the classifieds.

I’ve earmarked a couple of suitable replacements, the Marantz NR1504 being the front runner at the minute. It’s going to cost me £70 or so to upgrade the AVR at the moment which isn’t much by itself but it eats into the budget for the priority stuff. It’s definitely on the cards eventually though.
 
There are some subs that have both high-level and low-level inputs, but more than that, they have independent memories for each and the ability to accept signals from both inputs simultaneously. Have you come across this idea before?

I haven’t but understand the concept. Can you name any examples?
 
Or you could buy two subs ie svs SB ultra 16 for music and svs pb ultra 16 for movies.

And maybe two homes one with living room iwith hifi and another with living room with home cinema.
 
A lot of the BK Electric subs too.

What happens if you have the high and low level inputs connected simultaneously and they are both being fed at the same time? Struggling to get my head around that as surely it’s getting a signal from the AV receiver pre out and the speaker output of the amp.
 
What happens if you have the high and low level inputs connected simultaneously and they are both being fed at the same time? Struggling to get my head around that as surely it’s getting a signal from the AV receiver pre out and the speaker output of the amp.

I think the best way to understand this is to build up a picture based on a few hypothetical situations, then you'll see where the idea has come from and why.

Let's start with adding a sub to a plain simple stereo amp. The amp has no sub out, so the only connection is via the speaker terminals. The audio output frequency from the amp's speaker terminals is full range - say 20Hz to 20kHz - but the main speakers only go down to 45Hz, so the job of the sub is to fill in the remaining bottom end. So far so simple.

There are various different ways that a sub could connect at speaker level, but in the case of the BKs and MJ Acoustics as examples, the sub connects in parallel with the main speakers. That means there are two wires going to the red positive left and positive right terminals, and two wires going to just one of the black terminals. This way the sub gets the left and right feeds plus a 'ground' return. At this point you might be thinking that two sets of speakers connected in parallel will mess up the impedance. That would be the case if it was two pairs of 8 Ohm speakers, but the sub has a very high impedance so is effectively invisible as far as the amp and stereo speakers are concerned.

Now the techie bit is out of the way, the sub gets blended with the main stereo speakers using the high level (speaker level) crossover. This provides adjustment for volume, crossover and phase. The result is similar to having a large pair of floorstanders capable of playing the full range audio that the amp is providing.

Let's say you're the owner of a high-end AVR; one that's good for music as well as movies. You want the best you can get for music, but you also want to do the movie thing. The AVR has a pure music mode which outputs just the front L & R speaker channels, but with some stand-mounted speakers and a sub connected via the more usual subwoofer out RCA connection then you lose the bottom end because the sub channel output gets switched off in Pure mode. Running the sub with the high level connection as well as the RCA sub out fixes that.

From the receivers point of view, the main speakers respond like large floorstanders because the sub is filling in the bass via its speaker connection. The AVR set-up has the fronts as Large. The rest of the speakers are set to small.

When playing movies, the AVRs subwoofer out socket provides the bass for the centre and surround, plus the Low Frequency Effects audio (LFE). The front L&R get full range audio (20Hz-20KHz). During the set-up process, the sub gets blended with the main speakers via the high-level crossover. This is done by ear usually. Then, for the low-level (RCA) input, the receiver's set-up mic can be used. Whenever the system is running for movies, or even music in anything but Pure mode, the sub gets two signals: One is the the full-range audio for the front L&R channels, which the high-level crossover then filters down. The other is the bass that's managed by the AVR. The sub plays both at the same time.

So far we've just dealt with one amp, whether it's a stereo amp or an AVR. Next, we're going to have a look at what happens when there are two amps in the system. This would be the AVR and a stereo amp fed for surround duties by the AVRs front L&R channel pre-outs.

The Hi-Fi amp is permanently connected to the main speakers. Any music only sources such as a turntable or a DAC connect directly to the stereo amp's inputs. Sources for surround connect directly to the AVR. The Hi-Fi amp acts as a power amp during movie/surround playback.

When just the Hi-Fi amp is on, the sub gets a feed from the Hi-Fi amp's speaker outputs. When both the AVR and the Hi-Fi amp are on then the sub gets two feeds and plays them at the same time.

The final question which might be buzzing round your head is how the volume levels of the AVR and Hi-Fi amp are set. That's done during the AVR set-up. Once the correct level is found for the Hi-Fi amp acting as a power amp, then the volume dial is marked so that it can be returned to each time the surround system is used.
 
The problem is two signals unless it has a relay and is remote controllable, the. It's going to be a mess of the two signals.

Only if the two signals are entirely different; say LFE & bass from a movie soundtrack while the Hi-fi amp is playing Ed Sheeran on Spotify.

In reality, that's not going to happen, and not just because it's Ed Sheeran. ;)

When playing music the AV amp will be in standby. There won't be a signal in to the low level input. The only signal will be on the high level input.

When playing movies, both the receiver and the Hi-Fi amp will be on. All will be used to play one source. The high and low level input's will be playing different parts of the same audio signal, very similar to how it would be if there was an AV pre-amp as would be the case if there was an AV pre-amp running a stack of power amps.

Mixing of audio signals already happens behind the scenes in AV receivers. We run small speakers as satellites and then ask the subwoofer to take care of 5/7/9/11 channels of bass plus the LFE channel. Does anyone complain that that's a mess?
 
But that's not bass management, the system you are describing is combining and summing signals.

Better to run sub in av mode only, run a it controlled a/b switch box or buy two subs,or have two different systems
 
yes I don't understand ..
listening to a movie using avr, sub will receive the two signals, one from avr and another via the hi-fi amp, even if the hi-fi amp has been set to a pre-configured volume, as soon as you change the (master) volume on the avr, to turn it up or down, the sub's overall volume may not remain in the correct balance with respect to the rest of the music, if the gain on the two amplifiers is different. ... so moreover , you need to switch off the sub's input from the hi-fi amp when using the avr.

(Indeed, even for the L+R front speakers driven by the hi-fi amp ... how do you ensure they maintain the correct volume in the balance as the avr's volume is changed.)
 
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