My 200mph budget build

[turbotoaster]

ok a few pics for you to see

the car when i bought it

tein coilovers added for height adjustability

bought the ride height down(this will be lower on the day, but need to drive the car to run the engine in)

 

[turbotoaster]

port timing...how high, low and wide you go affects timing, the bigger you go, the higher it will be making power.

On the issue of reliabilty, this is very much dependant on the tune of the ecu, unlike piston engines you do not go to knock then back off a couple of degrees, a piston engine will cope with a small amount of det before breaking, this is not true for a rotary, they cannot take any at all, the moment you get knock the 2mm metal seals that sit in the corners of the rotor break off and exit the engine.

So a 2mm bit of metal hold the explosion of a combustion chamber, its an awful lot to ask but thats what it was developed for and does very well.

Right so the engine was rebuilt with all new belts, bearings, seals all around the rotors and water seals all around the housings(kind of like a headgasket)

This came to a total of £3000, the reason for the large price is because I also had new housings put in, this was to make sure i had perfect compression to make the most power for the boost i was running, if not the bill would have been £700 less, £3000 i think is pretty good for an engine that can hold 700bhp, this includes a walk in/walk out service with a 12month warrantee.

ill add some pics of the rebuild so you can see whats going on inside it

ok engine build pictures
engine out and bay looking a bit dirty!!

removed secondary butterflies

inlet manifolds

throttlebody

engine plate porting

Housing ex porting

nice housing surface

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Smaller wing mirrors, disk the wheels and flat floor it.

 

[Ricochet J]

Guess bikes just have really low top speeds then

I'll admit I don't know how bikers do it, but taking a logical approach I believe they position themselves at high speeds such that they have low velocity high pressure air flowing on top, and high velocity low pressure air flowing through the bottom.

 

[turbotoaster]

engine ready to build

Engine block built

bolt ons added for running engine in

to give you an idea of what stock ports are like and what my ports are like here is a pic

 

[turbotoaster]

Something similar was shown on Fifth Gear recently IIRC?

yes very similar only this time i thought about it more than listening to vicki butler hendeson giggling at me

I know a 630bhp VXR8 supercharged can reach 168 over a mile.

Wouldnt like to reckon it could reach the magic 200 in less than 0.7miles after that however. It gets exponentially harder as you get faster doesnt it ?

its all about drag to power, but weight comes into it as the faster you accelerate, the more distance you have for you 190-200mph push

Single turbo then?

yep, you shall it shortly

 

[MagicBoy]

Something similar was shown on Fifth Gear recently IIRC?

Twas a few years back, probably five years ago. Probably gets repeated on Dave every week. They chucked about £25k on a Lotus Esprit V8 project and ended up with a huge pile of FAIL. It kept lunching clutches, gearboxes and then the turbos IIRC.

 

[turbotoaster]

From experience of many vmaxs, weight does not have an appreciable effect.

What power figure are you aiming for?

around 700bhp on race gas

 

[Schnippzle]

SNIP

That was 9 mins of WAITING!

P.S. Good luck with the project.

 

[turbotoaster]

now when speaking to Rod(done 206mph) he mentioned to me that i would need roughly 630-650bhp to achieve 200mph, now thats in an ideal situation, ie im making that power at exactly 200mph, this brought me on to how much power do i actually need, the first thing to do is have a look around at a few compressor maps and also a few examples from the US/OZ

Now the problem with rotarys is they are very un-efficient with the airflow that they recieve, for every 10lb of air they receive they only make use of a max of 7.5lb of it.

So to make say 750bhp ill need a 1000bhp turbo if everyone follows me?

because of this un-efficent process the forces are not used fully for movement and are passed onto heat, hence why rotarys run so hot and also produce really high EGTs in turn because of the high EGTs the energy is passed out of the engine and into spooling a turbo, hence you can run a very large turbo for its engine capacity.

I did look at the garratt range of turbos but since this is very limited in budget i decided to discount them.

This left with me with a few other brands, mostly american diesel turbos. Now a company a few people may have heard off called Borg Warner are becoming increasingly popular in the performance market

Ill type up the next bit on my turbo choice in a second

 

[Muncher]

around 700bhp on race gas

I think you will probably need that and a bit more.

You can enter the first bend at brunters at 90mph or you can go from a standing start there, it will make very little difference.

What will you have in the way of brakes? You will need some very serious anchors to scrub off that kind of speed in the very limited amount of breaking space you have.

 

[turbotoaster]

ok there are many different turbos from borg warner.

I have decided to go with a s475 which can flow 100lb/min with a 1.15 A/R rear end, i can go larger on the rear but decided this is a good compromise between spool and top end power.

I can give full specs of wheel sizes if anyone needs it

to give you an idea of size, here it is next to a coke can

It will normally outspool the equivalant GT4202 by 400rpm on a rotary and they ony cost £400-£600 from USA so a bit of a bargain!

Obviously you have this massive turbo, your gonna need to connect it to the engine, this is where a forum member on pf called rickylee comes into force.

Now after seeing his manifold he made on his turbo civic build thread, after seeing that i got in touch with him about making me a manifold, really nice chap and he will be building it, will also run a 5inch downpipe to help with spool and top end power which will exit behind the drivers side wheel.

Ill be using a 60mm wastegate and the manifold will be a t6 divided version to help out boost threshold

looks like this

Ill come onto cooling in the next post

 

[turbotoaster]

From experience of many vmaxs, weight does not have an appreciable effect.

What power figure are you aiming for?

I think you will probably need that and a bit more.

You can enter the first bend at brunters at 90mph or you can go from a standing start there, it will make very little difference.

What will you have in the way of brakes? You will need some very serious anchors to scrub off that kind of speed in the very limited amount of breaking space you have.

that power should be fine.

a 4 door corolla did 200mph there with 650bhp, with a larger front area and more transmission loses.

same for a escort cosworth with 700bhp

the car comes with very good brakes from factory, proper 4pots, there will be enough distance to stop dont worry

 

[Muncher]

Standard brakes won't be enough to stop it from that speed. Every car that I've been in that has hit 200mph or nigh on at brunters has had to work seriously hard to stop even with carbon ceramics, 6 pot Porsche calipers and enormous disks.

 

[saitrix]

Surely not - surely all weight affects is acceleration?

It does, the weight of it affects the acceleration by the same amount at all speeds it is going.

You have two forces acting on a moving body, rolling resistence and aerodynamic resistence. The rolling resistence is partly made up from the weight of the object, so thats what takes into account the weight of it. This stays constant for all speed, unless you start counting downforce or lift, which then the weight figure will change.

Then the aerodynamic resistence soon becomes the major one, with it increasing to the velocity squared.

 

[turbotoaster]

now your throwing an awful lot of hot air around into an engine that is known to run hot anyway.

Without proper thinking its a recipy for disaster.

The standard radiator is around 30mm thick and does a decent job for a standard car but very quickly reaches its limit once your running a lot of power.

a lot of people choose to keep the stock one for a while when running single turbo, the reason for this is 2 fold.

1. because most single turbos are only oil cooled you have one less hot think to dump heat back into the water system.

2. because of the larger rear end of a single compared to the twins theres less restriction for the heat leaving the engine, this in turn helps get the heat out of the rotary engine faster, this was something i read and im sure theres a better way of typing it, but ill leave that for improvement.

Now im not just gonna run 400bhp on this engine, im looking nearly double that, so its silly to believe that the stock rad can cope.

Luckily the ebay rads you see for sale are only £120 and are proven to work on big power cars, they are 58mm thick which is a big improvement and are cheap as a bonus.
so got this one

The car runs 2 oil coolers as stock and they are pretty good at controlling oil temps even on heavily tuned rx7s.

The next thing to come up is air temps, running 30psi+ on a massive turbo will cause high temps.

To get over this i decided to use the cossie way of dealing with them and get a rs500 intercooler, now normally they are 50mm in depth, this is fine im sure for 500bhp(i know rod used one at 600bhp) but im going for more than that and want to make life easier for myself so im going for a 70mm core version which should give me the cooling that i require. This i havent ordered yet as need to save a couple more months for

here below is a picture of the setup...only in paint but gives you an idea

now blue is intercooler, red is radiator and green is fans, the grey is the aluminum ducting which ill go all around the cooler so that no air is wasted and will then be forced through the rad aswell

also it will be keeping a stock front end, the front opening will give enough air to the cooler as the ducting will make a funnel shape to the cooler, if air looses a few mph before it gets to the cooler it wont matter at 150mph+

ok fueling next

 

[classicVin]

looking good, goodluck with the build (Y)

 

[AmDaMan]

Very interesting!!

Rickylee is a mate of mine, his civic is insane and he's built another friends del sol turbo that has around 400bhp! Think you're in good hands, good luck!

 

[turbotoaster]

well ill be going with a power fc, its easy to tune and pretty versatile
It arrived in the post today actually from japan.

yes something like a autronic/motec would be better but theres some big numbers being done over in the states on this ecu and money is an issue.

The good thing about it is the commander which can monitor everything the ecu sees, saves me buying a few gauges, for example at can see all the below in real time

Engine RPM
Ignition Timing
Vehicle Speed
Air Flow Voltage (Pressure Sensor Voltage)
Injector Duty Cycle
Boost
Knocking Level
Battery Voltage
Intake Air Temp
Water Temp

Thinking about injectors i did some calculations and for 700bhp a rotary needs 5500cc/min of fuel(not 100% duty, about 85%)

now ross at dragon performace and the guys at reworx both suggested i go with 6 injectors instead of trying to fit massive injectors into the primarys and secondarys as its a lot harder to map.

so we talked about maybe 6 x1000cc injectors, but then that comes down to budget again.

I was watching a guy in america running 9s quarters running a stock ecu with a peter farell piggy back ecu controlling extra injectors, he was pushing 600whp+ which is the numbers im after.

i sat and thought about it a couple a nights ago and thought how can i do it.

it then came to me, i already have 2800cc of the injectors in the car at the moment, i only need another 2700cc and im sorted, both tuners recommended 6 injectors, so why dont i put 2 x 1600cc injectors in, that 3200cc worth of fuel, more than enough, watched a few videos of some monster rx3 and he was running extra injectors in his Upper Inlet Manifold and ive decided thats where they are gonna go, on the secondary port sides(outer edges) this means i keep my stock primarys for driving around like miss daisy, also keeps my afr while idling as normal and normal driving ill be ok

Fuel pumps will be 2x 305ltr pumps running in tank which will give me more than enough fueling

 

[turbotoaster]

I would have thought something along the lines of an MR2/RX7 would be good for this.

I know the RX7 can take massive boost on stock rotors. Always see them with T88's etc running over 400bhp. I'm not clued up much on 13B tuning but know they can take a lot of boost due to being rotary.

There is a chap in the US who has a 185 celica running a 800hp 3S-GTE who did 200mph

well yes rotarys can take a lot of boost but only on race gas or with something to slow the burn rate down to stop det...ie water injection or E85 fuel.

on normal pump fuel they cant at all, normally 1bar of boost is the limit no matter what turbo as above that your playing with fire.

a t88 on pump fuel is about 530bhp@1bar or [email protected] on race fuel

i couldnt do 200mph in one mile, wouldnt be able to hook up till 4th gear lol