My 3 series sucks, help.

[Clarkey]

So I got an e36 328i sport recently in an effort to have something that was faster and more fun than my old Colt. I don't seem to have succeeded, I'd sort of gotten used to it but I took the 300zx out today for the first time since having the BMW. I was surprised by how lively and fun it is, not something you would normally associate with a heavyweight automatic car.
The BMW just feels lethargic and wayward both in terms of how it steers and how the engine works, also it seems incapable of putting power down without considerable power oversteer.

I could go 3 directions.

Keep the BMW, spend out on it a bit on a new suspension, M50 manifold conversion.

Sell BMW and try a 200SX instead.

Go back to a Colt, but with an interesting engine in (my last one had some basic suspension and wheel/tyre mods, it was fun to drive, lively and responsive steering, always had the confidence to drive at 10 10ths in this car).

Don't know what's the right thing to do, but want to make a change because right now I'm paying BMW running costs and I don't feel that I'm getting good value.

 

[Clarkey]

You definitely won't like an SX if the above is a grievance with the BMW.

To be fair the rear geo is all over the place but can't be corrected because there's not enough arch clearance thanks to both the stupid wheels and stupid springs.

I find no issue with the z, which has basically the same rear end as a 200.

 

[Clarkey]

Why don't you use the 300zx all the time?

I do a lot of miles and the fuel consumption is ferocious.

Nope. a lot of scene boys do it gives massive amounts of camber

Yeah, with evo mounts, it's nothing to do with being 'scene' though.

Did you not test drive it before you bought it?

Yes, seemed alright at first.

For some reason can't multi-quote any more, so..
Tyres are Avon ZZ3 235/40/17 all round, 7-8mm tread. Not sure on the springs, they are bright yellow though, not sure if stock. Rear sits pretty low though, tucking tyre quite a bit, front has a good couple of inches gap. Shocks are standard Bilstein yellow ones.

I hear what people are saying about old shocks and bushes, I'm sceptical as to whether it will make that much difference though, afterall the 300zx is even older and more worn, yet that still feels tight. Likewise the colt, same age, more mileage, didn't feel slack/wooly at all.

 

[Clarkey]

I can blame alignment on the bad traction but the front is perfect., can't see how the rear will affect how the steering responds. maybe my expectations are to much, last car was very stiffly sprung after all. Guess a comfort sacrifice is needed, shame a Datsun can be comfortable and still responsive.

 

[Clarkey]

Clarkey,

Just realised I've chucked a load of info in and not given detail to prices.

Nick fitted some Apex RSX (I Think?) Coilovers that he bought 2nd hand (brand new, never fitted, still boxed) for £400. We did the work with minimal tools and could have done it all in a day if we had been more aware of what we were doing. The rears can be swapped in probably 45 minutes a side.

Decent alignment.... depends where you go, but Wheels In Motion in Chesham was £100, and you got 2 free adjustment sessions after (so go back saying you want more grip at the back etc...)

Thanks. I think a set of coilovers is going to be the way forward with this car realistically.

Let me get one thing straight though, there seems to be some level of confusion over this. Shoes on here has a 328 sport, it has -200kg weight reduction, bucket seats, smaller deep dished steering wheel, M50 manifold conversion, cat-back exhaust, and cheapy JOM coilovers with an A-line special geometry. I've driven this car extensively and it is AWESOME, the steering is light, very precise and fast responding. The engine is fantastic, it's much much faster than mine and not lazy in the slightest, and the traction is mind blowingly good. So, I'm not saying that the e36 in general is balls, it clearly isn't. Quite how much effect the weight reduction has on all this I couldn't tell you. He has an M50 manifold that we are going to fit on his daily (full weight) 328, so that will be a good judge of the benefit of that. I don't wish to run a gutted car on a daily basis, I've grown quite accustomed to the refinement of it.

Back to coilovers, I've got 3 options really.

JOMs off ebay, very cheap and pretty cheerful from what I can see.
SPAX RSX, next step up, possibly too firm for daily use?
HSD HR, the expensive option, but supposed to handle awesome and retain OE ride quality, heard nothing but glowing reviews.

Just have to decide whether I like the car enough to put some cash into it or not.

I took the car to A-line dudley for geo, fronts are bang on spec for toe (0"10' in iirc) with a touch too much camber (1"30') and more caster than spec too. Rear has far too much camber (3"00') and toe is out 0"17' and 0"21' respectively (it should be IN, but fwiw shoes red car has small toe-out on the rear). I want it set to -1"45' camber with 0"20' toe-in, but unfortunately with the 8Jet38 wheels, pulling the camber out will mean the tyre fouls the arch lip. I need to either change the wheels (hello Matt82 ), or have the arches rolled.
A-line are brilliant btw, very helpful and happy to work with you to develop a bespoke setup should you wish. Totally transformed shoes red one, went from almost undrivable to awesome, and for a very reasonable price. For the fanboys, yes they have a Hunter machine, obviously that is key

I don't know if we are getting our wires crossed here, im aware standard evo top mounts offer more negative camber. However, when the scene boys lower the car they often use standard m3 top mounts and fit them on the incorrect side, so they fit the left side on the right, this gives more negative camber than evo mounts.

Normal M3 3.0 top mounts are offset rearward to achieve more caster, they do nothing for camber though. M3 evo ones are offset back even more for caster and also offset outward to reduce the camber. Why reduce, you might ask? Well, because they altered the hub knuckle to give more included angle, which allows for more neg camber range when using adjustable top mounts on race cars. Alternatively, you could just flip them around and that gives you a ton of neg camber. There's also an easy trick with e36 front struts to add camber if you want, just stick washers between the bottom holes and the knuckle. My car is for road use though, so such front camber isn't necessary or really wanted.

 

[Clarkey]

It's also a load of cods wallop and Fox should know better than to post something like that. When I was using the Colt I was never that taken with it, thought it was too heavy and didn't do corners. Yesterday I got out of it with a big grin on my face though.

 

[Clarkey]

Can we forget about the value of the cars please, it's not helpful at all. I got the car for a cheap price considering it's the most desirable LSD model, depreciation is the least of my worries.

 

[Clarkey]

.... Did you see my post on the parts ?

Yeah I did thanks, I'll bear it in mind.

 

[Clarkey]

Worth checking that the LSD still works, a lot are now worn out and need servicing (they will still act as a normal diff when worn - they will not lock though).

oh it locks

 

[Clarkey]

From the sounds of it, cheap mods, poor care and old age has got the better of your E36.

It doesn't have any cheap mods.

I think you should get some decent shocks/springs for it and almost return it to stock, then you can start modding it as you see fit.

Sounds like a waste of time and money, I'll only want it sportier anyway.

At the moment it sounds like it needs a good service (do they change the diff oil on these?)
Not really, it has FSH and 3 lights on before it's due an Inspection II, at which point yes, the gearbox and diff oil should be changed.

a decent set of tyres
Got, ok they're not AD08's but not nasty ditch finders either.

, a decent suspension setup and a geometry check and it will be no less than 1574% better than how it sounds at the moment.
This has been covered in depth just up the page.

EDIT: Oh and get new bushes ALL ROUND asap! This made a massive difference on my E46 and mine were barely worn.

All round meaning what exactly? Just castor bushes and RTAB's? Subframe mounts too? New top mounts?

 

[Clarkey]

An update on this. Was a lovely day yesterday, so I took the car out for a blast around mid Wales.

Nice, no?

Too much body movement, made my mind up, going to order the HSD HR coilovers next month.

There's a couple of other things though. Noticed that when driving over rough road that the front end wanders around the road and it feels pretty unnerving. I can only assume this is an effect of bad control arm bushes?
Also noticed that when turning with lots of steering lock i.e. around hairpin turn, there is a wierd bobbing motion, assuming there's a blown damper causing this.

Oh, and does anyone know of a source for new clutch discs for the LSD?

 

[Clarkey]

What's wrong with the front lights?

It looks a bit chav to me, you sure the previous owner hasn't screwed something up? Those awful headlights inspire no confidence.

Cheap (or potentially expensive) aftermarket tat projector units by the looks of it.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-4-hella-euro-angel-eye-headlight-kit.aspx

That is the light kit, as you can see it is not cheap tat although my opinion of them is varied. They might look a bit silly, but having driven a few of these with stock lights, the beam on these is considerably better so getting rid is going to mean downgrading the light.

This of course has nothing to do with suspension

I'm aware that the HSD are tricky to adjust in situ, but they shouldn't need to be adjusted once set. I've heard nothing but good things about them, even reviewed by a race driver as being an equal to KW V3. That's good enough for me, plus these are dual perch design, and I'm keen to buy with driftworks, a local company supporting a sport I'm keen on.

 

[Clarkey]

Clarkey,

is it these you want - http://www.driftworks.com/shop/hsd-hr-monotube-coilovers-for-bmw-e36-including-m3.html ?

They say they are monotube. Unsure if its the same make to make, but the Tein Monotubes are HARD. like, rock hard, like, country road at 60 is dangerous as you literally bounce hard.

Maybe get something a bit more forgiving... KWv1's or a Bilstein offering ?

Yep, one of the main selling points of them is the ride quality is excellent, only marginally worse than OEM.

Just had a bit of a freakin downer put on the car plans though. My mechanic, a family friend, a guy who was there the day I was born, has had a stroke and passed away. I'll have to soldier on without his help, RIP Graham

 

[Clarkey]

Are you still on standard anti roll bars?

They'd be my first port of call of ridding a car of excessive bodyroll if it already has some form of uprated suspension.

It's a Sport thereby the ARB's are massively uprated compared to the base model already. That's not to say it's not something worth looking into still, for now though I'd sooner have hard springs in there.

Sorry, only just saw this.

On my E46 FCAB were a must. I also did all of the ARB bushes and the RTABs. The RTABs on the E36 were meant to have an even short life expectancy than on the E46! RTABs and FCABs reduced the tramlining/high speed "instability" i had significantly. Then getting rid of the Bridgestone tyres eliminated it altogether.

Also, i had a leaky rear shock by 65k and 8 years old and replaced both rear shocks and top mounts as a precaution. Also i replaced the front drop links which were like £25 for both and took a whole 5 minutes for the mechanic to fit - definitely worth doing.

Should be able to get ALL of this done for around £300. Quite a bit less if you can do everything yourself. If your E36 has never had any bushes etc changed, the difference should be massive.

EDIT: Sorry, only just read about your friendly mechanic

Thanks, I've been looking into the bushes today. RTAB are easy to get, Meyle HD ones should do I think, not sure if I should go for Powerflex polyurethane ones.
Front ones seem tricky though, they are solid eccentric bushes on the Sport (being solid, you'd think there's limited scope for wearing out, but whatever..). Can't find Meyle HD ones, although you can buy them as part of a control arm kit easily. Will continue looking.

 

[Clarkey]

So, update on this.
Found a company called express car parts which sell all the Meyle catalogue for very nice prices. Ordered Meyle offset FCAB, and Meyle/HD RTAB.
Ordered HSD HR coilovers (m3cutters group buy ***, great timing).

Done some research on geo settings for it, decided on
F
Camber -2'15"
Caster 7'00" <-- still some question over this, I will have adjustable caster, lot of people say it's best to go for as much as possible, others say 6-7 (standard M3 setting) is fine. Currently running 5.
Toe 0 - 0'06"

R
Camber -1'40"
Toe - 0'12"

This will please the purists, bought a set of standard Bosch headlights. I'll be dismantling and fully cleaning them before fitting.

Just a waiting game now for all this stuff to arrive. Excited.

 

[Clarkey]

I have some idea yes, it's a pretty similar setup to what shoes is running on his track car. Driven that on the road and it's great, really direct and responsive and gives you the feeling that the front end will never let go. Drove a wet and dry session in it on Donington too, and it's lovely and neutral.

Aside from that, there's a huge thread on bimmerforums recommending that setup for street use, trackculture have also recommended a very similar setup. It's also basically the same as the M3 Sport (whatever that actually is?) factory settings.

Basically the idea is that 1.5 rear with a small toe-in gives it good grip and traction, and because the camber gain on the McStrut is much less than the double wishbone type rear you need to run a degree more static camber up front to dial out understeer. Getting rid of the factory front toe-in livens up the steering feel, but 0 toe can cause inner tyre wear from highway driving so a hint of toe-in helps counteract that,

Hope that gives you an idea where I'm coming from with it, but as you say it's just a starting point. The car will be adjustable in every respect so there's always room for tweaking.

I don't know about the wheels are tyres, eventually I plan to change them but for now I can't be bothered with it. I'm a little confused about the clearance issue though, the wheels are 8j et38 with 235/40 tyre. The factory setup is an 8.5j et41 with 245/40 tyre, this is actually wider and gives less arch clearance than what I have now. If the car can run with -2 from the factory with a wider tyre then I can't see why I couldn't run -1'40" with a narrower set. I'll just tell the alignment guy to disregard the clearance issue and do it anyway.

 

[Clarkey]

So, since last time I changed out the springs and shocks. The Bilstein B8 I can only assume were original, o/s/r was totally blown.
Posh HSD coilovers were fitted.

Criticisms.. Inner clearance is hopeless, I guess that's just the price you pay when using full body coilovers. Spring rates could be higher, it's actually a bit softer than stock on the softest settings, but it feels too slack like that. Crank them all the way up and it's crazy stiff, back breaking stuff. I played with the damper settings a bit before alignment but it drove like a dog regardless so I'll disregard any findings and will experiment more now. There will be a nice middle ground between comfort and responsiveness, I will find it in time. It has been said in this thread that the HSDs were an ass to adjust the fronts because of the inverted strut design meaning the knob is on the bottom. It's a bit of a pain, but really no big deal, they can be adjusted just by putting it on full lock and reaching under.

I took it for alignment today. Actually I took it to have the bushes changed first but the guys told me the existing bushes are solid as a rock and it would be a waste of time. Will probably change them in time, I have them sitting in a box anyway.

After 2 hours of alignment work, it looks like this..

Like I say, it drove like a dog before, so this is a nice improvement.
Before, it had an incredibly planted front end, but the rear was stupidly loose, absolutely no traction at all. Now it's got a load of traction, steering reacts better, no more rear end wobble when swerving. I have lost a certain amount of the awesome front end grip I has before though, maybe I will have some of the camber put back in.

Even after all this, responsiveness is not as good as my shonky old Colt. Next step I will replace the steering column guibo (can I get a solid one? what a stupid thing to have), look into new tyres (AD08/F1AS2/CS5??) and maybe replace the rubber mounted outer balljoints with solid M3 style ones from the Meyle HD range.

Also, the noise from the grooved brake discs was getting right on my nerves so I put a pair of brembo plains on there, blissfully silent braking now They came in a pretty red box so here's a picture of it.

 

[Clarkey]

Must be that, everything else on that sheet is generated by the Hunter software.

 

[Clarkey]

Yes,I lowered it a bit more since then though. Will post pics after I change the lights.

 

[Clarkey]

Ok, today I had a set of Yoko Advan Neova AD08 tyres fitted to the car F 225/45 R 245/40.
To put it simply, I take back anything derogatory I said about the car. This is a proper tyre and the car feels amazing now, steering is very tight and direct now just like my old Colt was. Pretty surprised how much better it feels over a well regarded tyre like a Conti CSC3. That's before you even get to the grip level which is frankly astonishing.
Had a rear toe adjustment too, the last setup I had resulted in a nasty snap oversteer, back to a known good setting. Damper settings were pretty shoddy with the new tyres and didn't match at all, tweaked tonight and seen an improvement but it started raining so will continue messing another day.
Pleased with the wear on the old tyres, fairly even despite running what could be considered a lot of camber.