Man of Honour
The word ' endeavour ' invalidates anything after that.
My employer wants to change the days I work, what are they allowed to do?
- Thread starter Ahleckz
- Start date
They would still need to act in a reasonable manner though in the real world actually challenging that without either solid union representation or external legal body is generally a losing game.
They'd generally get around that by iterative changes if challenged anyhow.
Man of Honour
' Reasonable ' and ' endeavour ' are both ambiguous phrases with no 'literal meaning' used for the contracters benefit, the contract giver only will define both of them .
Although ' Reasonable ' doubt can be used in a court of law, you will need to go on tribunal route to achieve this
There is a legal requirement for the "reasonable" bit - which ultimately would only be tested if it ever came to arbitration or a tribunal, etc. but still.
Man of Honour
I've not got my contract to hand, but found the master file so it'll read very similar and looks like I may be up the proverbial creek:
So your employer can change your normal hours of work to anything at any time. It can also force you to work overtime at any time. It might or might not give you any notice at all (the contract doesn't say that it will give you any notice).
Usual stuff nowadays. They are the master, you are the servant.
My employer requires its flunkeys to be available every day from 0700 to 0015. There are no "normal hours of work" or "normal days of work". There is no period of notice. Although the company does have a voluntary policy of telling its flunkies what days and hours they are ordered to work for the next 4 weeks, those can be (and often are) changed at any time. Flunkies might be (and sometimes are) ordered to work >16 hour days, with 12+ hour days being common. Overtime doesn't exist. Payment is minimum wage. Also usual stuff nowadays.
Then they need a sufficient break - working time directive and minimum break time between shifts still applies or your employer is breaking the law.
That shouldn't be usual stuff, it is potentially simply illegal behaviour by a dodgy employer that should be reported.
While you could willingly do a 16 hour shift under the directive it's 11 hours rest in any 24 hour period. Likewise an average of 40 hours a week. So if you were regularly doing long 12 hour shifts then you ought to be getting extra days off.
Man of Honour
Laws are not necessarily applied. There are usually minimal breaks of 20 minutes per 6 hours (but not for site-level managers, who are even more disposable to the company, and the timekeeping system will automatically deduct pay whether a person has a break or not in order to "comply" with the law) and longer breaks are commonly used. So a 16 hour day might be something like 8 hour shift (that might or might not contain a 20 minute break), 2 hour break, 6 hour shift (that will be listed as a 5 hour 59 minute shift so no break is legally required). The 11 hours rest in any 24 hour period thing is just plain ignored when desired, though it's normally allowed.
For example, today I'll probably be working 1130-1530 and 1800-0000. My finishing time is nominally much earlier, but we're required to work overtime on demand with no notice and it's routine at the end of some days.
It's all "willingly", of course. It's how work is nowadays. The employer is normal and almost always minimally complies with the law on working hours and rates of pay, which makes it better than some. The work itself isn't usually hard, just unhealthy hours in an unhealthy environment. But there are plenty of worse jobs.
Man of Honour
I need a job. And I need to leave for it now, so I'm off. I'll stress that there are plenty of employers that are far worse. It's how it is nowadays.
Soldato
- Joined
- 29 Jul 2013
- Posts
- 8,603
My thoughts exactly, just depends how considerable the difference is to usual working conditions.
So had the meeting today, and they want me to work one weekend every third week on site with no possibility of working from home and then having 2 consecutive days off during the week. Everyone else agreed to it with it beginning in January, I refused and it's now going to "consultation" but no one could articulate what that would mean.
I feel I'm just kicking the can down the road a bit and don't expect any other outcome than "take it or leave it".
I feel I'm just kicking the can down the road a bit and don't expect any other outcome than "take it or leave it".
That will likely be the result of the consultation yes. Accept new hours and rota or leave.
Man of Honour
It means they're telling you that whatever they want to do is going to be implemented as soon as possible. "consulation" is merely a delay in implementation for whatever period of time is legally required. No actual consultation is involved unless the changes are legally dubious and they consult a lawyer for advice. Which isn't the case here.
Yes.
I don't want to, and at interview I made that quite clear and I've been reiterating it each time it's been brought up. I work to live. I refuse to adjust my lifestyle to suit their business needs. As said, I'm accepting they can probably make me do it. I just don't accept they can make me do it with little to no notice and without following proper processes. I have two options, I do it or I leave but I'll ensure they follow the process properly before doing either.
Anyway, they've delayed implementing it for a short time (suspect it'll be brought back up in March) as they can't fill a position they need to effectively start it.
Permabanned
- Joined
- 9 Aug 2008
- Posts
- 35,711
Great description of modern day slavery. Great isn't it.
This will be your only options. Companies know how to get around laws they not stupid. They will force things through regardless of a union or not.
Jesus what do you do? I moan about my work life balance often, but I could never imagine for an employer like that.
Man of Honour
I think that's a fairly extreme exaggeration. It's fundamentally unlike slavery because it doesn't contain the defining feature of slavery - legal ownership. It has a bit more in common with indentured servitude, but it's not that either because it lacks the defining feature of indentured servitude - indenture. It's just partially restricted capitalism. Unrestricted capitalism would be bona fide slavery, of course.
As I'm sure you can appreciate, I am not at liberty to give any details that might possibly in any way identify anything. My contract of employment forbids me to say anything that anyone could interpret as a negative comment about anything to do with my job and/or employer.
I will also stress again that there are many employers worse than mine and many jobs worse than mine. Much worse. What I have described is quite decent working conditions for flunkies nowadays. Many people are completely unaware of how bad things have become since the financial crisis ~10 years ago. I'm doing relatively OK compared to many people, in part because I'm still allowed some of the pre-crisis contract conditions (e.g. sick pay for those of us who can afford to live without an income for 3 days), in part because of my lifestyle choices and in part because a generous friend lent me £3K for a deposit for a mortgage >20 years ago when house prices were a fraction of what they are now. I am damaged by my job, but I will probably survive long enough to retire on a barely survivable pension without being badly crippled. Probably.
Studying history gives some interesting perspective about being a flunkey. At various times in the past it has been much better and much worse in this country. If the day has been particularly bad, I consider the possibility of being a flunkey in 19th century England. My life is a land of milk and honey unimaginable paradise in comparison with that.
Out of interest why have you chosen to be a "flunkey"?
If its got this sort of bleak outlook then surely do something a bit better? I mean I get that people sometimes have circumstances beyond their control at different points in their life but if you've got some time left before retirement then you could still gain some more qualifications or find something that pays better or has better conditions - why spend a big chunk of your waking hours doing something that is both mindless and damaging?
Yeah
it'll be some variation of bringing it in via the backdoor or softly introducing it if they meet resistance a common one being "lets just trial it for a couple of weeks".