Neuralink

Sorry I no longer have any idea what you are talking about :(

e: Why don't you also need to simulate the 5th and 6th dimensions, whatever they are? I'm assuming they exist/are part of the universe which we are simulating? So should be part of the simulation, ie also simulated?

Or are these dimensions outside of the universe? But if they are able to affect the universe, surely they should still be part of the simulation? If the AI can use them (to simulate the universe) then they should be part of the data being simulated..

In which case we are still back to the original problem: how do you simulate reality faster than reality occurs, using a fraction of the universe's energy and matter to run the simulation?
Sad that you chose to pick this apart when I stated it was half-baked. But to give some idea where it comes from, look into the theory of relativity where you can see there are between 12-14 dimensions required to resolve everything. Whether these are theoretical dimensions or they actually exist is obviously unknown. But the higher you go the more concise your equations are in terms of deriving the rules for the lower dimensions and you would certainly need those for putting into a universe simulator - maybe not all, I simply do not know. So anyway, perhaps there are rules at the higher dimensions that can approximate the results in lower dimensions without having to explicitly solve and expand upon them. Or perhaps there are variables which allows to increase the speed variable of a simulating universe.
Go back and check how things advance each 100 years before dismissing things.
Case in point. Not only dismissing the impending future, but potential future as well.
You don't want to go sticking wires in and facing the possibility of causing brain damage or worse.
Maybe watch the demo.
 
It's the same as how current simulations work in the engineering world today. You load up some boundary conditions, press solve, and the machine spits out stress/strain, fluid motion/thermal capacity, SI/PI whatever the study was for.

...

and you would accept the result, and if so why?
 
seems kinda cool, wonder if a normal persons brain shows a different pattern in the firing of neurons compared to someone with autism or whatever.

there must be other companies doing the same type of thing behind closed doors, probably some Japanese company already gave a dog a robot body
 
and you would accept the result, and if so why?
Trust in the solver, previous results, convergence. For product design sims the simulation is not the be all and end all - you still need real life prototypes to test on and correlate results. But the point of eng sim is to reduce the number of physical prototypes which saves both time and money.

In the above examples we already have the end result and want to match the simulation to what already exists, as opposed to creating something new. An example of that in today's world would be studying how a real object failed, e.g from catastrophic fracture. Simulating the conditions until you got the same result as you saw in the physical version. Not as common as designing new products.
 
You are confusing the singularity with simulation ability as a pre-req which was never mentioned. Being able to simulate reality is a pre-req in the basilisk thought experiment. I did not state any conditions for the singularity, yet you are correcting me on something not being a condition for it...

I'm not confusing that at all - the posts you've quoted show the opposite, they literally show me stateing, for the sake of clarity, that they are seperate (you've then made your own assumption that this is a correction - just read what was posted please, don't assume!) - how many times do I need to highlight that it isn't a condition????

To be clear - if a singularity event comes about it is not conditional on this thought experiment being possible.

They are separate things.

Is that clear now - that I'm quite aware they are separate things? - I'm specifically not conflating them!

How would I not follow when it was my post that presented this idea?

Because you conflated the idea of multiple universes with simulating multiple universes, you said:

"For the rest of what you've said - the multiverse theory, multiple worlds. Not sure how you can talk with such conviction about that being definitively how everything works"

What I've said doesn't rest on that thus I've highlighted that to you and checked that you still follow?

You don't seem to have followed, for example, that I'm not conflating the possibility of the singularity with this thought experiment when I've taken the time to make it clear across several posts that one isn't conditional for the other... yet here we are again with you assuming I have done that... There isn't much discussion to be had if follow up posts are going to be muddled like that, You're just going to end up talking past me, thus I want to make sure the points I've made are clear/understood by you. I'm not sure I can safely assume they are so far.

Please try to stick to what I've actually said instead of making additional assumptions about things I've not said please as it helps to avoids this issue. Talking about simulating multiple universes is not the same thing as stating a position re: there being multiple universes - that requires an additional assumption on your part.

Tbh I have over zealously added that in as a requirement when it was never mentioned in the original video. Yet I've thought about the concept a little too much and gone for the jugular with what's required in terms of complexity.
Either we find a way to simulate existence by brute force (because it can be done so fast) until we find a carbon copy of us just now, or shortcuts with convergence can be done - run a single simulation with lower fidelity through to the present day, then rerun from a point in history where the earth can largely be considered a closed system away from external influences of the universe (and thus reducing the complexity of the sim by [universe - 1 solar system] and keep iterating, increasing fidelity where needed. This is called convergence in modern day physics simulations and gives very accurate results in the localised areas of interest.

Well that's still pretty dubious - you're now talking about approximations, that might well be great for physics simulations but you're then introducing errors and excluding any outside event beyond that localised simulation especially if this is getting down to simulating individual humans and how they end up behaving etc..

Some of these humans are going to look at the stars - some subset of human relationships, babies born, engagements made, first dates etc.. might happen under said stars... now your closed simulation doesn't have them...

Oh but you'll perhaps now have to wiggle back a bit - will you approximate those stars?

OK well some of those humans will be Physicists/astrophysicists observing stars far away in the universe, events that occured many light years ago etc..

Just as a general point if you introduce approximations you're allowing for errors - this doesn't stack up well with you wanting the level of granularity you'd perhaps need to simulate all the possible outcomes of various events and look at how individual humans behave, what their thoughts and actions are etc..etc..

And that's before we get back to the point where the search space for this would be ridiculously massive... even for this apparent closed system (which by default now must contain approximations and therefore errors) if you need to simulate many many versions then you'll still end up with some resource requirement beyond that perhaps of just simulating the entire known universe once.

If you don't have the closed system then you've still got the feasibility issue - is it even possible to accurately simulate the universe from within the universe - there is the resource issue mentioned before, there is another issue that your simulation exists within the universe... this becomes a bit recursive - you've gotta simulate your simulation and so on.... I think you'd need to be outside the universe in order to simulate it.

The answer to these objections so far is basically a hand waving one of magical things being possible because future technology....
 
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To be clear - if a singularity event comes about it is not conditional on this thought experiment being possible.
Why do you keep stating this? Which part of any posts I made stated there are any conditions for the singularity?
 
Why do you keep stating this? Which part of any posts I made stated there are any conditions for the singularity?

Because you keep on saying I'm conflating the two and I've been quite clear that I'm not! Why keep on saying I'm doing something I'm clearly not?
 
In 1,000 years do you think humans will be able to live forever? (our own brain with a robot body)

also, I can see a future world where everyone can have a nuralink "by facebook" for free, paid for by brain-ad-beaming-technology
 
In 1,000 years do you think humans will be able to live forever? (our own brain with a robot body)

also, I can see a future world where everyone can have a nuralink "by facebook" for free, paid for by brain-ad-beaming-technology
I would hope that a sufficiently advanced society would have moved beyond corporate capitalism. Whilst it's arguably a good system for the here and now (with constraints and safeguards) I do sincerely hope we replace it eventually with a more enlightened system.

As for dying - we don't understand atm why cells age and die. Until we understand the nature of the problem, it's impossible to be certain of a cure. That statement however depends on whether you are looking purely to science for answers or if you have some religious belief. Christianity, for example, talks of a time in the future where "death will be no more".

I add this for completeness.

PS "Brain in a robot body" doesn't really help because your brain will still age and die, even if the robot body doesn't.
 
PS "Brain in a robot body" doesn't really help because your brain will still age and die, even if the robot body doesn't.

You're then looking into Altered Carbon style consciousness uploading, which means it's not even the original you, just a copy. So seems totally pointless to me.
 
Because you keep on saying I'm conflating the two and I've been quite clear that I'm not! Why keep on saying I'm doing something I'm clearly not?
Conflate has a different meaning to confuse, which is the word I used. The quote below is where it started from. Can you explain your context there? Because no one stated that a singularity must simulate the universe.
I certainly don't think that the ability to simulate the universe is a requirement of any singularity nor do I know if such a thing is possible let alone being able to simulate many many universes and search among them.
Then similarly you posted the following, immediately after I listed conditionals required for simulation theory
It's not a condition for a singularity at all, it's a thought experiment....
It's fine to admit you got these wrong but not to project it back at me as losing the direction of the thread.
However, I admit that your post about multiverses was you explaining why you thought simulating all quantum effects was not possible, rather than supporting multiverse theory. I read fast, it was late.
 
Well that's still pretty dubious - you're now talking about approximations, that might well be great for physics simulations but you're then introducing errors and excluding any outside event beyond that localised simulation especially if this is getting down to simulating individual humans and how they end up behaving etc..

Some of these humans are going to look at the stars - some subset of human relationships, babies born, engagements made, first dates etc.. might happen under said stars... now your closed simulation doesn't have them...

Oh but you'll perhaps now have to wiggle back a bit - will you approximate those stars?
Yes, because its extremely unlikely their localised effects have any bearing on our galaxy/solar system and can be ignored. For example their planets would be largely irrelevant to us and could be represented by single objects of mass if needed, rather than the entire life and death of the planet itself.
A rough calculation to work out when the star change into a state that has effects on us other than light e.g. pulsar that could have us in it's polar line of sight and then that is simulated in finer detail for those events, and the "butterfly effect" that's had on our solar system is calculated.
This way you can remove vast amount of unnecessary calculation.

The answer to these objections so far is basically a hand waving one of magical things being possible because future technology....
There is no other way. I cannot convince you that 100% accurate simulation of an entire multiverse is possible, and you can neither convince the opposite. What I can say is that due to our limited knowledge of phenomena outside of our current scientific knowledge e.g. dark matter, string theory (if they still have that on the table), is that whatever is on the layer below quantum effects may make simulating them quickly, more feasible due to compression calculations or shortcuts that give us the same results.
Not everything is equally weighted by quantum change. Sure in Schroedingers cat its the driving force and heavily weighs on the outcome of that scenario. But for a rocky moon with very few isotopes and shielded from radiation by the sun or moon there is much less random deviation over a longer period of time that needs to be calculated - so you can cut chunks of solving out of it because its not needed. For objects that are not static over much shorter durations, it is needed. The butterfly effect that occurs between those two extremes can be iterated such that it can be ruled out in N simulations in that localised area.

However, I do believe there is a non-zero chance that in the future we can simulate everything entirely without shortcuts. I do not need to believe it to appreciate the probability of the idea. And so by definition I believe Roko's Basilik is also possible, just less possible if we are only living in one universe. If it's the multiverse, then the chance that any conceivable action can happen has a much higher probability
 
It's fine to admit you got these wrong but not to project it back at me as losing the direction of the thread.

I'm not projecting anything back at you - I'm just baffled at how you're reading this - I'll again ask you to drop the assumptions you keep adding in and to read carefully what I've said as apparently me putting in sentences for clarification has lead to you making additional assumptions.

Can you explain how me taking care to specifically state I'm not conflating the two things has lead you to accuse me of doing exactly that - to me that makes no sense and is based on some projection/assumptions?
 
Yes, because its extremely unlikely their localised effects have any bearing on our galaxy/solar system and can be ignored. For example their planets would be largely irrelevant to us and could be represented by single objects of mass if needed, rather than the entire life and death of the planet itself.
A rough calculation to work out when the star change into a state that has effects on us other than light e.g. pulsar that could have us in it's polar line of sight and then that is simulated in finer detail for those events, and the "butterfly effect" that's had on our solar system is calculated.
This way you can remove vast amount of unnecessary calculation.

Not really - fine if you want to just have a simulation of a universe etc.. but again we're getting down to the level of granularity of mapping out many many universes and then the subset in which humans exist and so on etc...

So you can't rely on some general simulation, a sun will last for this amount of time and exhibit this general behaviour etc... how many comets come past, what other events were needed for those particular comets to appear etc.. If you have a comet appear at a different point in time, on a different night do you change the course of a first date, first kiss looking up at the sky, a relationship, marriage and the creation of a new human who then go on to reproduce and so on... I don't think you're considering just how sensitive such a model would be if we're getting down to the level of being able to map out potential decisions each human makes each day etc.. and all the multiple humans that might live or might otherwise have lived in other simulations including other possibilities.

However, I do believe there is a non-zero chance that in the future we can simulate everything entirely without shortcuts. I do not need to believe it to appreciate the probability of the idea. And so by definition I believe Roko's Basilik is also possible, just less possible if we are only living in one universe. If it's the multiverse, then the chance that any conceivable action can happen has a much higher probability

It just isn't grounded, you don't need to know everything about the future in order to highlight limitations with this sort of thing. If the main argument against those limitations is just a handwaving... because the future/magic new technology then that's a bit of a cop out IMO.
 
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The simple fact is, every time you use an abstraction or approximation, you introduce error.

In order to accurately simulate a human being down to his very thoughts, you would need to have 100% accuracy.

A single inaccuracy could cause the timeline to diverge to a totally different path, eventually resulting in entirely different outcomes.

This could be caused by something incredibly minor, like not simulating the ray of light that becomes the difference between a fire igniting or not igniting.

Take the example of a snooker match. The winner can be determined by a couple of mm. A ball struck marginally too softly. Instead of the winner going on to be 7 times world champion, he loses and gets drunk, then is involved in a fatal car crash later that evening.

A single tiny variable. A world of difference to the outcome.

To simulate a human being accurately to the level of their thoughts would require zero inaccuracy. Every single neuron and synapse correct.

You would not be able to approximate anything or abstract anything. The second you do you introduce error. Then divergence.
 
^^^ this.

Arguably to simulate all possible universes the outcome of every nondeterministic event at a sub atomic level across all matter in the universe requires another new universe.

Given that it isn’t clear that it would ever be possible to simulate “a” single complete version universe from within the universe (since the universe also contains the simulation... which then requires simulating itself and so on.... - seems like an obvious flaw), taking things further to simulating many... well it is very implausible that that would ever be possible.
 
Both of your arguments seem to ignore any measured data to date. By the time AI comes along, we will have insane amount of data to describe our presence and the universe to use as a benchmark for simulations.
A simple example to understand would be geomapping, which is adding huge amounts of detail to our knowledge of the earth.
Cosmologists are able to describe distant star types, masses, ages, and their planetary bodies just from colour and wobble.
What calculated assumptions could an AI that has gone beyond the singularity come up with if all it had access to was the same telescopes and satellites we have access to? Whatever it is it would be better than ours, by definition. And it would have much more advanced tech.
So this measured / calculated information on the present is used as a "benchmark" for simulations to converge on.
Again, this is just like in the present day for reverse diagnostics in real-world scenarios.

A single inaccuracy could cause the timeline to diverge to a totally different path, eventually resulting in entirely different outcomes.
...which is then compared against the known metrics to date. An entirely different outcome is detected? Rewind to a previous milestone and reevaluate.

No sun after 9b years? Rewind
No cooling earth? Rewind
No WW2? Rewind
No Musk launching a Tesla into space? Rewind.

The real complications in the simulation have only occurred in the last few thousand years where human consciousness has added extreme complexity to probability that did not exist before.
You would not be able to approximate anything or abstract anything. The second you do you introduce error. Then divergence.
See above. Divergence is expected in every simulation, even in today's simulations and is overcome with parameterisation - a set variables the solver can modify in order to rerun simulations until convergence.
Arguably to simulate all possible universes the outcome of every nondeterministic event at a sub atomic level across all matter in the universe requires another new universe.
If you want to mandate only the sub-atomic level i.e. protons and electrons - this would make the process much easier.
It just isn't grounded, you don't need to know everything about the future in order to highlight limitations with this sort of thing. If the main argument against those limitations is just a handwaving...
I'm not hearing your limitations closing any doors. Limitations always exist, engineers and scientists spend their lives overcoming them. Quite the opposite to hand-waving is a closed-minded attitude due to not having the mental capacity to understand the numbers involved and dismissing it. I cannot comprehend the numbers involved, but neither can I comprehend the processing a modern CPU does every second. But we know it's possible.
...very implausible...
I think this is really the difference of the arguments. Your glass is half empty while mine is half full.
 
...which is then compared against the known metrics to date. An entirely different outcome is detected? Rewind to a previous milestone and reevaluate.

No sun after 9b years? Rewind
No cooling earth? Rewind
No WW2? Rewind
No Musk launching a Tesla into space? Rewind.
That's stupendously inefficient. We're actually talking about an infinite (near as dammit) number of failed simulations to get to one close to the present reality.

It's the same as trying to create the complete works of Shakespeare with a random letter generator. Only it's many orders of magnitude more complex as a problem.

And to use your examples, it's more a case of, "A single grain of sand not in the right place? A single molecule in somebody's brain? Better start again!"

Because as we've already said, a single difference in a single neuron in a human's brain can cause that human's life course to be entirely different.

You're talking about a simulation which is so accurate it can read the thoughts of every human being on the planet.

That means that every human being's brain must be 100% accurate in this simulation. I'm not sure you even grasp the sheer scale of the problem, tbh.
 
e: And here's the killer problem.

How does the AI know that a single neuron is out of place? It can't.

How does it know that a single grain of sand, buried two meters underneath the surface, is out of place? It can't.

The AI can't even know when it's got the simulation wrong, as the simulation approaches the present.

That, I'm afraid, is unsolvable for your AI.

e: In other words, the AI would have to continually make course corrections based on the evidence it had from the real world. Evidence it could only gather from historical data and whatever present-days sensors it has to work with. The AI is not a god, and cannot see every molecule constituting our planet and its inhabitants.

When you reach the present day in your simulation - which uses abstractions and approximations - how can you be sure your simulated present day is correct?

Therefore, how can you be sure your simulated data from the last year is correct? Or before that?

The AI does not have data of all existence to compare its simulated outcome to ensure correctness.

Ergo the AI would have to conclude that it's simulation could not be verified, nor the results trusted.
 
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Both of your arguments seem to ignore any measured data to date. By the time AI comes along, we will have insane amount of data to describe our presence and the universe to use as a benchmark for simulations.

Not really, not for what you're talking about.

No sun after 9b years? Rewind
No cooling earth? Rewind
No WW2? Rewind
No Musk launching a Tesla into space? Rewind.

you'd be rewinding many many times, in fact you'd be uncertain re: other events - it's not like all these human actions are even known - again you're completely glossing over the sensitivity of the model here.

[quite]
The real complications in the simulation have only occurred in the last few thousand years where human consciousness has added extreme complexity to probability that did not exist before.
See above. Divergence is expected in every simulation, even in today's simulations and is overcome with parameterisation - a set variables the solver can modify in order to rerun simulations until convergence.
If you want to mandate only the sub-atomic level i.e. protons and electrons - this would make the process much easier.
[/quote]

No it wouldn't, it makes the search space vast and the point is that even one isn't necessarily feasible let alone the huge number required here.

I'm not hearing your limitations closing any doors. Limitations always exist, engineers and scientists spend their lives overcoming them. Quite the opposite to hand-waving is a closed-minded attitude due to not having the mental capacity to understand the numbers involved and dismissing it. I cannot comprehend the numbers involved, but neither can I comprehend the processing a modern CPU does every second. But we know it's possible.
I think this is really the difference of the arguments. Your glass is half empty while mine is half full.

Your argument relies on hand waving, that's pretty much it.
 
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