New Champions League format

BaZ87 · 1 Apr 2021 at 16:38

chrcoluk said:
Correct in that case neither team should get a place, I actually think these extra CL places should be going to champions of smaller leagues, but I used that example to show how silly it is.

StumbleBum said it all really, he explained in a nutshell how it will get abused.

I'm not sure how it would get abused or how it would be any different to a side now focusing on cup games when they have nothing to play for in the League. Unless you were one of the top 10 ranked sides then nobody will be guaranteed anything until the final round or two of the season. And teams focusing on one competition over another is nothing new - I can recall Liverpool fielding weakened sides at the end of the 06/07 and 17/18 season when they had little to nothing to play for in the League but were on their way to CL finals.

And I disagree on giving more places to smaller Leagues. A lot of people might not want to admit to it but nobody wants to or will watch Bayern beat Neftci from Azerbaijan 6-1, many more would watch Bayern play Roma or Ajax. Imo there's already enough spaces for teams from smaller nations and they're getting an extra two from this proposed change - any sides good enough to be in the CL will make their way into the CL through the qualification rounds. If they can't get through the qualifiers then they probably aren't good enough for the real thing.

chrcoluk · 1 Apr 2021 at 16:40

I thought that was your reasoning, at least you been honest, been its about wanting to watch the big clubs.

BaZ87 · 1 Apr 2021 at 16:56

chrcoluk said:
I thought that was your reasoning, at least you been honest, been its about wanting to watch the big clubs.

I'm not sure why anybody wouldn't admit it. Nobody can honestly say that they would rather watch Midtjylland vs Neftci instead of Real - Bayern, unless you were a supporter of Midtjylland or Neftci of couse.

CL group stages are, on the whole, boring. You get the odd interesting group each year but mostly it's just about getting through to the main event. If the group stage suddenly had games between City and Real, Bayern and Barca that would be more appealing to the majority of football supporters, certainly more so than Atalanta vs Midtjylland.

Kenai · 1 Apr 2021 at 16:57

The coefficient thing is just a route to ensure they always have the big clubs in the competition, even if the odd one has a crap season and doesn't qualify normally. Calling it a wild card distracts people from this obvious purpose.

As a supporter of a non 'big club' i'd rather see coefficients (or similar) be used on a league basis somehow, so year to year different leagues may be awarded more or less places based on how well that league performed in the competition the years before - if the EPL ends up with all 4 semi-finalists, they get extra spots next year. If they all get dumped out in groups, then the following year is reduced, maybe all the way back down to their standard allocation.

This would source more 'high quality' teams from the leagues that are performing well recently.

Complete pipe dream though, as it's clear that from a financial perspective they'd far rather throw a Man Utd into the competition due to 'coefficient' even if they had a crap season and finished 10th than award an extra EPL slot to say the 5th or 6th placed team that might turn out to be someone boring like Wolves having a standout season.

Shamikebab · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:02

Kenai said:
As a supporter of a non 'big club' i'd rather see coefficients (or similar) be used on a league basis somehow, so year to year different leagues may be awarded more or less places based on how well that league performed in the competition the years before - if the EPL ends up with all 4 semi-finalists, they get extra spots next year. If they all get dumped out in groups, then the following year is reduced, maybe all the way back down to their standard allocation.

Yeah that would be an absolute disaster financially. You can't have a major portion of a team's income be that random. Also it's a cup competition, how far you get is as much based on who you play as how good you've been. If you're unlucky enough to get knocked out by one of the favourites early on then your whole league shouldn't be punished. You're just suggesting the current coefficient system but far less stable and with a hell of a lot more problems.

Kenai · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:06

Shamikebab said:
Yeah that would be an absolute disaster financially. You can't have a major portion of a team's income be that random. Also it's a cup competition, how far you get is as much based on who you play as how good you've been. If you're unlucky enough to get knocked out by one of the favourites early on then your whole league shouldn't be punished. You're just suggesting the current coefficient system but far less stable and with a hell of a lot more problems.

But these are only extra places anyway, so no league is going to get 'punished' as they'll always have their standard allocation, rather they'd be 'not rewarded' for next season.

If it's about sourcing the best teams from around the continent to create the best competition, awarding more league places for the teams finishing well in those leagues makes more sense than just dishing the extra places back out to established big clubs just because they've been in the competition loads of times before.

It's not about that though, it's about running the most lucrative competition and that's why they've invented a way to make sure they keep the big names in there even on their off seasons.

Kenai · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:18

I suppose the bigger facepalm to point out, is that what i'm suggesting isn't actually that far off how they already decide which leagues get 4 slots, which get 3 etc.

It seems to have been so consistent for so long I didn't realise it was actually already coefficient based allocations anyway until I just went to read up a bit more on what the new proposals are in detail.

Shamikebab · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:20

Yeah I was about to point that out

BaZ87 · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:21

Kenai said:
It's not about that though, it's about running the most lucrative competition and that's why they've invented a way to make sure they keep the big names in there even on their off seasons.

This is 100% the reasoning but why will this make the CL more lucrative? Because it's the games between the biggest sides that attracts more viewers. For all the faux outrage in this thread or on twitter regarding these plans, not one of these people watched Midtjylland vs Atalanta but I bet lots watched Utd - PSG & Barca - Juve.

chrcoluk · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:26

Kenai said:
I suppose the bigger facepalm to point out, is that what i'm suggesting isn't actually that far off how they already decide which leagues get 4 slots, which get 3 etc.

It seems to have been so consistent for so long I didn't realise it was actually already coefficient based allocations anyway until I just went to read up a bit more on what the new proposals are in detail.

The rules are made to fit around their aims, Italy e.g. not that long ago was harder to qualify, simple, change the rules to fix it

Kenai · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:27

BaZ87 said:
This is 100% the reasoning but why will this make the CL more lucrative? Because it's the games between the biggest sides that attracts more viewers. For all the faux outrage in this thread or on twitter regarding these plans, not one of these people watched Midtjylland vs Atalanta but I bet lots watched Utd - PSG & Barca - Juve.

I think objections from 'non big club' fans aren't particularly centred around a desire to watch no name teams, rather that if there are going to be extra places up for grabs it would be nice if that mechanism allowed for the potential that those extra teams might be their own no name team if they did well enough.

We all know big club games attract more viewers and that's why they attract more money but that doesn't mean it's not disappointing as a fan of other teams to see a mechanism being created to ensure they're virtually always going to be the beneficiaries of the extra places.

It comes across as nothing more than a safety net to try and ensure big clubs can't miss out if they screw up their preceding season.

chrcoluk · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:28

BaZ87 said:
This is 100% the reasoning but why will this make the CL more lucrative? Because it's the games between the biggest sides that attracts more viewers. For all the faux outrage in this thread or on twitter regarding these plans, not one of these people watched Midtjylland vs Atalanta but I bet lots watched Utd - PSG & Barca - Juve.

Yes its about maximising profit, I dont think anyone here is arguing why its been done, its to make as much money as possible for the european giants.

The problem is where do you draw the line? sport should be sport, the end game might be WWE style football, why not? it will make money.

Shamikebab · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:32

Kenai said:
I think objections from 'non big club' fans aren't particularly centred around a desire to watch no name teams, rather that if there are going to be extra places up for grabs it would be nice if that mechanism allowed for the potential that those extra teams might be their own no name team if they did well enough.

Which is the same now? For example Leicester qualified for the Europa League last season. They then did crap and went out to Slavia Prague so their coefficient will go up a little. If they'd done better it would go up a lot more. Now that they're introducing this third tier of Europe (at least I think that is still the plan?) there will be even more opportunities for 'smaller' teams to show they can perform in Europe.

BaZ87 · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:42

Kenai said:
I think objections from 'non big club' fans aren't particularly centred around a desire to watch no name teams, rather that if there are going to be extra places up for grabs it would be nice if that mechanism allowed for the potential that those extra teams might be their own no name team if they did well enough.

We all know big club games attract more viewers and that's why they attract more money but that doesn't mean it's not disappointing as a fan of other teams to see a mechanism being created to ensure they're virtually always going to be the beneficiaries of the extra places.

What more can be done to give more opportunities to these smaller sides without diluting the quality of the competition? We already have 4 automatic qualification spots in the PL and other major Leagues, this isn't going to be increased* and there are routes to qualify for the CL from all smaller European Leagues, some via qualification rounds. If these sides cannot get through the qualification rounds, should they be in the CL? And this proposal does give an extra two spots to smaller nations lets not forget, it's just being balanced out by giving greater security to the bigger sides and creating more big games.

*Is it fair to give an extra automatic spot to the PL or La Liga over giving another spot to Holland or Russia or wherever else?

Kenai · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:43

Shamikebab said:
Which is the same now? For example Leicester qualified for the Europa League last season. They then did crap and went out to Slavia Prague so their coefficient will go up a little. If they'd done better it would go up a lot more. Now that they're introducing this third tier of Europe (at least I think that is still the plan?) there will be even more opportunities for 'smaller' teams to show they can perform in Europe.

But we're talking about expanding the number of teams who take part in the competition, not how you qualify today, and how that's not going to result in additional opportunities for lesser clubs because they're concocting a system to award those extra places to established teams - that's why people are moaning about it.

There's no tantalising extra slot on offer if you're Southampton fighting to grab 5th, 6th or 7th. But if you're Utd and you crap yourselves into 9th, you'll probably get a place anyway.

Like I said, it's clear why they'd rather have Utd in the competition than Southampton but it doesn't make it any less disappointing.

Kenai · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:50

BaZ87 said:
What more can be done to give more opportunities to these smaller sides without diluting the quality of the competition?

If dilution of the competition is a genuine concern, then the fundamental idea of expanding the number of teams is flawed before you even worry about how they are qualifying.

Shamikebab · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:50

The thing is, if they'd announced that 5th place in the league qualifies for the CL you'd probably be complaining that they're giving extra chances to Arsenal/Man Utd etc to qualify to the competition.

Kenai · 1 Apr 2021 at 17:56

Shamikebab said:
The thing is, if they'd announced that 5th place in the league qualifies for the CL you'd probably be complaining that they're giving extra chances to Arsenal/Man Utd etc to qualify to the competition.

Whilst it would be likely they'd pick it up anyway, it wouldn't be impossible for a lesser team like Southampton to get it if they pulled off a wonder season.

It is impossible for Southampton to get into the competition on the basis of places being awarded on historical European performance though.

I know it makes sense financially and as a big club fan having a safety net that means you're more likely to stay in the competition can't be viewed as a bad thing, I'm just trying to explain why small club fans aren't jumping for joy at this safety net and why it's not about a desperate desire to watch random Serbian league teams either.

BaZ87 · 1 Apr 2021 at 18:02

Kenai said:
There's no tantalising extra slot on offer if you're Southampton fighting to grab 5th, 6th or 7th. But if you're Utd and you crap yourselves into 9th, you'll probably get a place anyway.

How do you justify giving Southampton a CL spot for finishing 5th over the Champions of Romania? There will always be somebody that complains it's not fair. You have to try and find a balance that satisfies as many clubs as possible. There will be more spots for smaller European nations, there will be greater security for the biggest sides, your Leicesters and Southamptons of this world are no worse off and the CL group stage has more exciting matches than it does now. Looking at the CL in isolation, who loses out under these proposals? At worst it's 'as you were' for one group of clubs and it benefits the biggest & smallest clubs and there's higher quality games for the fans.

It's not been discussed once in here but the real issue with these proposals is that more European football will detract from and lower the value of domestic Leagues and this is what your Southampton's and Leicester's are really worried about. Domestic Leagues will be with us for the foreseeable future but this is another step in the journey of them playing 2nd fiddle to the CL or a future European League. We know the PL are working behind the scenes to resolve the Project Big Picture issue and while it might not happen soon, more pressure will be put on the League to cut the number of teams to 18. The next battle will come when the CL decide they're going to play games on weekends and domestic Leagues have to play more midweek games to make space.

Kenai said:
If dilution of the competition is a genuine concern, then the fundamental idea of expanding the number of teams is flawed before you even worry about how they are qualifying.

The change to the way the group stage will be played offsets that though. There will be no more big vs small matches than we have now but there will be more big vs big matches.

Kenai · 1 Apr 2021 at 18:12

BaZ87 said:
How do you justify giving Southampton a CL spot for finishing 5th over the Champions of Romania?

The same way you'd justify giving them the spot if they finished 4th - league slots based on league coefficients. If it's a good enough system to allocate all the slots now then just expand it a bit.

In a way as a club like Southampton, what grates is it's like being told "we're opening up more slots... but not for you, they're for making sure clubs like Utd and Liverpool can't miss out".

A little reminder that in the big wide world of football, if you're not one of the big teams you don't matter and never will and things will be designed to make sure it stays that way.