New Champions League format

The same way you'd justify giving them the spot if they finished 4th - league slots based on league coefficients. If it's a good enough system to allocate all the slots now then just expand it a bit.

In a way as a club like Southampton, what grates is it's like being told "we're opening up more slots... but not for you, they're for making sure clubs like Utd and Liverpool can't miss out".
Using that model wouldn't result in more PL teams though. There are a number of smaller Leagues with around 30 coefficient points that only get 1 automatic CL spots. The PL and La Liga have around 90 coefficient points but get 4 automatic spots. Increasing qualification spots based on the Leagues coefficient will mean more guaranteed spots for the Scottish, Ukrainian, Turkish and or Austrian Leagues, not the PL. Southampton would be no better off.

Using this method we'd have 4 more teams from smaller nations, teams that if they were good enough would have made it through the qualifiers anyway. You're going to end up with a weaker competition. Like I said, it's a balance. Instead of 4 smaller European sides getting an automatic spot, there will be 2 and the other 2 still have the opportunity to make it through the qualifiers and that's balanced out by having 2 more of the biggest sides being secured of a place.
 
It would be interesting to look at how many points teams will typically earn under the new format when they have a 'mediocre' season, what with there now being 10 group games. So like say you have 3 wins, 2 draws, 5 losses vs a range of opponents, is that you racking up up a decent co-efficient to add to your pot from prior years.
 
What more can be done to give more opportunities to these smaller sides without diluting the quality of the competition? We already have 4 automatic qualification spots in the PL and other major Leagues, this isn't going to be increased* and there are routes to qualify for the CL from all smaller European Leagues, some via qualification rounds. If these sides cannot get through the qualification rounds, should they be in the CL? And this proposal does give an extra two spots to smaller nations lets not forget, it's just being balanced out by giving greater security to the bigger sides and creating more big games.

*Is it fair to give an extra automatic spot to the PL or La Liga over giving another spot to Holland or Russia or wherever else?

Think about the point you making, you saying somehow that someone who cant get past quali rounds shouldnt be in it at alll (not even quali rounds?), yet someone who cannot qualify via domestic competition should be in it? Previous performance in the competition should have no impact on the following year except "maybe" for the winners.

Whilst I know the real reasons they making these changes, it doesnt make these reasons right, everyone should strive for the best sporting rules. Also Leicester was well past the quali rounds. We topped our group. The main reason our coefficient is low is we have only been in europe twice in the past decade, our stint in the CL we were the furthest progressing EPL team. If we had won the CL or were to win the Europa this year, it still would be low, coefficient gets high over a number of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_UEFA_Champions_League_knockout_phase

Effectively you have Bayern, PSG, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, Man City, Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona and maybe Atletico supporting the changes and the rest of European clubs objecting, rules for the few or the many?

Not to mention it makes the CL harder to win if you forcing qualification for all the big teams every year, which is what this change will do. Liverpool finish 9th? no problem they get in with wildcard.

Remember the magic of Forest winning the european cup "twice" ?
 
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From an English Premier league perspective and especially a United perspective it makes league position irrelevant and European success of the upmost importance.

We are 8th in coefficient rankings and the teams above us pretty much qualify for the comp every year and could toss it off in the league and still get automatic qualification. Out of those teams above us we are the only team to struggle to get into the champions league every season so pretty much gives us the top wildcard entry every time.

Same goes for Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal.

All this does is bolster the strength of the Premier League in Europe and that 5th place in Spain.

Going off current league positions Arsenal and Liverpool would qualify next year if this was in force today. If United dropped out of the top 4 but managed to win Europa that would give 7 English teams in the Champions League!!!
 
Think about the point you making, you saying somehow that someone who cant get past quali rounds shouldnt be in it at alll (not even quali rounds?), yet someone who cannot qualify via domestic competition should be in it?
Yes. The potential 5th place side in La Liga (for example) are likely to be a much stronger side and will add more to the competition than the winners of Kazakhstan. And no, I'm not saying the winner of the Kazakhstan should lose their place in the qualification rounds. The whole point of these changes is nobody is worse off - you have 2 extra spots for smaller nations and there are two more places for the highest ranked sides and it's as you were for everybody else.

Re Leicester, yes? That's the point of coefficients, they're not just based on one season but 5 or 10. As English sides done poorer last season in Europe should we now have fewer places in the CL?

And what about Forest? They'd still qualify for the European Cup.

And people really need to stop calling these 2 spot wildcards (and I saw your edit and quote from a misinformed BBC journalist) - a wildcard is when you're given entry when you haven't qualified for a competition, that is not the case here. These are not random, lucky picks - it is a new method of qualification. There's nothing wild about it, the two highest ranked sides that didn't qualify via their domestic Leagues will now qualify via coefficient ranking.
 
"Sporting merit should be the guiding principle and we should not qualify teams on co-efficient," said European Leagues president Lars-Christer Olsen.

How does he think the coefficient is determined...

The same methodology used to determine World Cup Allocations no doubt
 
Which is my point about all this really. Every format change that has occurred seems to be moving further away from Football as a sporting contest towards Football as circus entertainment. Sure the actors are athletic and talented, but the actual outcomes of matches seem less important than names of the stars involved and the hype of the promoters.
 
Yes. The potential 5th place side in La Liga (for example) are likely to be a much stronger side and will add more to the competition than the winners of Kazakhstan. And no, I'm not saying the winner of the Kazakhstan should lose their place in the qualification rounds. The whole point of these changes is nobody is worse off - you have 2 extra spots for smaller nations and there are two more places for the highest ranked sides and it's as you were for everybody else.

Re Leicester, yes? That's the point of coefficients, they're not just based on one season but 5 or 10. As English sides done poorer last season in Europe should we now have fewer places in the CL?

And what about Forest? They'd still qualify for the European Cup.

And people really need to stop calling these 2 spot wildcards (and I saw your edit and quote from a misinformed BBC journalist) - a wildcard is when you're given entry when you haven't qualified for a competition, that is not the case here. These are not random, lucky picks - it is a new method of qualification. There's nothing wild about it, the two highest ranked sides that didn't qualify via their domestic Leagues will now qualify via coefficient ranking.

They called wildcards as that what UEFA classifies them as.

You seem to want as many as stronger teams as possible in competition as if you are a glory supporter who just wants your elite tv matches, whilst most of us feel it should be on sporting merit and a competition that doesnt decrease chance of smaller clubs winning it.

The fact is other teams are worse off with the wildcard system, this has been explained multiple times in here by me and others. Not to mention it is a unsporting rule.

You think someone like southampton in 5th shouldnt be in ahead of the champions of a smaller country, yet you then say its ok for someone like a 9th placed liverpool to be in ahead of the champions of a minor country, if there is to be extra places available absolutely no question these places should be going to champions of leagues of countries that dont currently get auto qualification. If a big team finishes outside of auto qualifying spots, then tough luck they not in the CL. I think many of their fans wouldnt be happy with this as their team would be approaching games with nothing to play for instead of trying to win every match.

Its also been explained to you how flawed the coefficient system is, it doesnt change drastically within a single year, instead it is a designed to award teams who have a long history of been in the competition. It was deigned to protect the elite clubs. As is the wildcard system been proposed here. I dont know if you naive to this or if its just that you ok with the elite clubs been protected.

There is also other long lasting consequences of this, as explained earlier someone like arsenal or manchester united in a bad season can just start experimenting, concentrate on cups etc., it doesnt matter there is "little consequence", they will still get CL the following season and all the money that comes with it, they re effectively awarded 10s of millions for failure. This effects how competitive they can be in following seasons and also the players they can sign, there is long lasting sporting consequences of this.

I am trying to remember, but was it you who also supported that nonsensical idea of the big 6 in the EPL been able to have powerful veto votes?
 
They called wildcards as that what UEFA classifies them as.
Please provide a link for this.

As for the rest of your post you're just spouting nonsense like in the Project Big Picture thread but I'll reply to it none the less. I've already said that I want the best sides in the competition to make it a better competition - the group stages are generally boring and if this new system creates more, bigger matches then I'm all for it. I've not once said x or y shouldn't get a place or should get a place over somebody else. I've questioned how you would justify where those extra spots would go to. Kenai mentioned using the current coefficient system - this would result in 4 more spots to smaller European Leagues. I think that's a terrible idea. These sides already have the opportunity to qualify via the qualification rounds and if they're good enough, they'll make it through. I have no interest in just giving spots to teams that aren't good enough to play in the competition. I have no interest in watching Bayern beat some Romanian side 5-0. And I don't believe that you or anybody outside of Romania does either.

Can you please explain the fact that other sides are worse off under this system. Who will miss out of qualifying for the CL that would have under the current system? There are 4 extra spots being created on top of all the current ones :o

As for it being explained to me how flawed the coefficient system is, where? I know that the coefficient ranking won't change massively in a single year (it could for smaller clubs/leagues actually) but that's the point of it!

And the point about sides experimenting or resting players in the League already happens. Have you not watched Premier League football over the last 20 years? The final months of the season you regularly see teams with little to nothing to play for that rest and rotate players every game.

And re your last question, you clearly have problems reading if you think that. I said several times that I didn't want them to have voting power.

Lets get this straight, I've been completely up front, I want to watch more games between the biggest and best teams in the CL group stages. You won't admit it, just like you didn't admit that you, Leicester and the rest of the small 14 clubs don't care about the EFL, but you are only interested in Leicester. You complain about the coefficient system protecting the big teams but you won't complain if and when Leicester qualify for the CL by finishing 3rd or 4th in the PL. The fact that the PL has 4 CL spots is due to that coefficient ranking, earned by the likes of Arsenal, Utd etc. You want to have your cake and eat it. You want the PL's biggest clubs to generate all the money and want them to share it with Leicester but don't ask Leicester to share any of that money with the EFL. You want to benefit from the coefficient that Liverpool have earned the PL by winning the CL but you don't want Liverpool to benefit from it.
 
On the final point of coefficient affecting league spots, I actually would be ok with it just going back to title winners only been in the competition, and yes even if it means Leicester in 2nd,3rd,.4th dont get in, that was a much better format in my opinion. My interest is in the wider football as a whole not just for my club, the coefficient system as I said was only put in place so big leagues with multiple big clubs can have all their big teams in the competition. Lets call it the champions league even with non champions in the competition.

On other points I did explain in my previous post Baz and I dont want us going in a never ending loop on this so will end it here on my part of the discussion. If I post here again it will be just to update on news related to this. :)
 
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I did explain in my previous post Baz and I dont want us going in a never ending loop on this so will end it here on my part of the discussion. If I post here again it will be just to update on news related to this. :)
If you could just link the bit about the wildcards please.

And I have no issue if you disagree with my views but don't tell me what I think or want. I have no issue expressing my own opinion no matter how popular or unpopular it might be. I have no problem admitting that I'd rather see 2 spots given to the best sides in Europe instead of some Romanian side. You might argue that it's because it will benefit Liverpool and yes, it will although I have no desire for Liverpool to be in a position where they rely on that. It's just as likely, if not more likely to benefit teams I don't like than to benefit Liverpool. I just want to watch better European football.

edit: In reply to your edit and wanting to go back to just the League Champions qualifying then my goodness I think that's an awful idea. We would have a Champions League that could only be won by 4 or 5 teams each year and we would have games between the Scottish champions and the Romanian champions. I do not believe anybody wants to watch that.
 
After its ratified and published on the UEFA website I will be happy to do so.
Why the wait if UEFA have already labelled them as that?

People are calling them wildcards entries to simplify the issue. The definition of a wildcard is:
an opportunity to enter a sports competition without having to take part in qualifying matches or be ranked at a particular level.
Whether you like the qualification criteria or not, there is clearly a qualification criteria being used here. These are not just random entries given out, they're based on your UEFA ranking.
 
Come on Baz :) you wont accept news sites as evidence so yes I will need to wait for it to be on their website.
I think a lot of journalists don't know what they're talking about. I only asked for the link as you claimed UEFA have stated that they're wildcards. I knew UEFA haven't which was why I asked ;)

Anyway, it's not important. People can call them wildcards if they wish but it's just another way of qualifying.
 
edit: In reply to your edit and wanting to go back to just the League Champions qualifying then my goodness I think that's an awful idea. We would have a Champions League that could only be won by 4 or 5 teams each year and we would have games between the Scottish champions and the Romanian champions. I do not believe anybody wants to watch that.

Scots and Romanians might want to watch.
 
I'm sure they would and this format gives them a greater chance of qualifying than the current format, it's just balanced out by having more games between Barca & Juve.
 
I'm with baz on this one, to call it a wildcard is farcical... Its an invitation based on prestige/how much additional commercial value the team will add to that years tournament.
 
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