New TVs - too sharp?

[RedvGreen]

About 2yrs ago a friend was demonstrating his new 40" Samsung LED TV. The screen physicalities were impressive - depth, colour, size, weight, features all good.

The main problem however was that movies looked fake and artificial - CGI looked absolutely fake; actors and the scenes looked like studios and it felt more like live theatre than (for instance) Iron Man 2.

Jump forward to 2 days ago, I'm looking at getting a replacement TV as my current one is too heavy to wall mount in the new house.

I'd eyed up a Sony Bravia KDL 32" on sale at various stores which ticked the box (about 1/3 the weight, 4 times the refresh rate, smart TV etc), and went to said big retail store. The displays there were all the same - simply too sharp. Whilst the picture quality was amazing, it wasn't engaging at all. Ironically, Iron Man was being demo'd on the screens and it looked like an amateur theatre session.

Has anyone else felt this, and is it something you can change or get used to?

 

[TheVoice]

It's simply down to the default or demo settings. They're set to Store Demo mode in store which ramps up the brightness, colour settings, sharpness and other "image enhancements" to draw the eye. If you leave a TV on the default settings out the box, you've wasted your money because you're not going to be getting the best from it that way.

 

[inogen]

Remember that in the shops they're all set up to be bright and shiny - rather than with a good picture.

That said, I do prefer a plasma to an LED. In fact I prefer our old LCD to most LED Tvs I see.

 

[Nymins]

Pretty much every TV should have its sharpness setting at 0. Anything more and it introduces information that isn't there in the source material.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

you want a TV which has a reference picture quality grading.

you also want to turn off all enhancements such as intelligent frame creation to off.

http://www.avforums.com/threads/panasonic-tx-p50gt50-reviewers-recommended-best-settings.1760670/

there is an example for my tv, the experts recommend I turn

CATS
PNR
IFC
OVERSCAN

all off, etc.

all of these enhancements make the picture look fake

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Pretty much every TV should have its sharpness setting at 0. Anything more and it introduces information that isn't there in the source material.

i thought this was true for feeds that are 1:1 with the tv's native panel?

but if your going to watch SD on a 1080P you would want the sharpness setting to be a lot higher than 0.

i think that's what i read anyway. but if your watching a 1080P blu ray then yeah your correct sharpness should be zero

 

[Nymins]

i thought this was true for feeds that are 1:1 with the tv's native panel?

but if your going to watch SD on a 1080P you would want the sharpness setting to be a lot higher than 0.

i think that's what i read anyway. but if your watching a 1080P blu ray then yeah your correct sharpness should be zero

I usually put it down to personal taste. Adding sharpness on SD content often makes it worse for me, exaggerating the lower resolution to a degree.

 

[mad4jags]

That said, I do prefer a plasma to an LED. In fact I prefer our old LCD to most LED Tvs I see.[/QUOTE]
I agree....being used to the picture quality that my Pioneer Kuro plasma produces,just about every LCD/LED panel looks like it's running a cartoon

 

[mmj_uk]

I've always been torn about sharpening, whilst I understand that sharpening is adding to the picture things that aren't in the source material, it doesn't change the fact that after a long period of time with sharpness on 0 and then putting it back to default you get a "wow!" moment.

Sharpness being turned down is just too soft and even though sharpening is technically a bad thing it is pleasing to the eyes, TV manufacturers wouldn't add it otherwise.

 

[tom_nieto]

IFC and sharpening are terrible. I always switch them off.

 

[Uncle Petey]

The main problem however was that movies looked fake and artificial - CGI looked absolutely fake; actors and the scenes looked like studios and it felt more like live theatre than (for instance) Iron Man 2.

I'd eyed up a Sony Bravia KDL 32" on sale at various stores which ticked the box (about 1/3 the weight, 4 times the refresh rate, smart TV etc), and went to said big retail store. The displays there were all the same - simply too sharp. Whilst the picture quality was amazing, it wasn't engaging at all. Ironically, Iron Man was being demo'd on the screens and it looked like an amateur theatre session.

I'd bet that those TV's had all the motion crap turned on and you were witnessing the 'soap opera effect'.
Turn that nonsense off, set it up properly and you'll get the cinematic image you're after (as long as the TV isn't poo of course ).

 

[V F]

i thought this was true for feeds that are 1:1 with the tv's native panel?

but if your going to watch SD on a 1080P you would want the sharpness setting to be a lot higher than 0.

i think that's what i read anyway. but if your watching a 1080P blu ray then yeah your correct sharpness should be zero

Not that high and it depends on the set. You need to get a pattern disc up with a sharpness pattern to see when ringing starts. AVS709/Mascior's, or ConnecTEDDD's disc.

Like mine. Ringing starts hitting 6 - 7 and 5 is perfect for Sky HD. Where 0 is perfect for Blu-Ray.

I'd bet that those TV's had all the motion crap turned on and you were witnessing the 'soap opera effect'.
Turn that nonsense off, set it up properly and you'll get the cinematic image you're after (as long as the TV isn't poo of course ).

Most TV's are rubbish out of the box. Even people spoke about how poor a Panasonic VT was.

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2011/12/why-tvs-are-not-calibrated-from-factory/

 

[lucid]

What I've found from calibration lots of client's TVs and projectors is that too much sharpness kills image depth. Its the same for most other picture "enhancements".

Just about every client comments on how much more detail is in the picture after compared to before. When I show them the sharpness is set set lower than before they're almost always surprised; they expected it to be much higher.

 

[Uncle Petey]

Most TV's are rubbish out of the box. Even people spoke about how poor a Panasonic VT was.

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2011/12/why-tvs-are-not-calibrated-from-factory/

Yes, that's true. Give me some credit at least

When the OP is using descriptions like "actors and the scenes looked like studios and it felt more like live theatre than (for instance) Iron Man 2" and "looked like an amateur theatre session", that sounds exactly like the SOE to me.
Of course, the rest of the usual overblown demo settings were probably on too.

Almost everyone's going on about sharpness settings as if that's the most likely culprit for the effect the OP describes just because he mention it being too sharp...

 

[RedvGreen]

Some good advice here - cheers folks.

What about some 32" Smart TV recommendations then... I was originally looking at the Sony Bravia kdl32w654asu which was coming back at around £358 everywhere at the moment, but reviews show that you cannot actually disable the Soap Opera Effect (somehow connected to the 200Hz refresh rate).

What would be a suitable 'awesome tv' for a similar price bracket that will allow a decent picture without that SOE evilness?

 

[V F]

Yes, that's true. Give me some credit at least

When the OP is using descriptions like "actors and the scenes looked like studios and it felt more like live theatre than (for instance) Iron Man 2" and "looked like an amateur theatre session", that sounds exactly like the SOE to me.
Of course, the rest of the usual overblown demo settings were probably on too.

Almost everyone's going on about sharpness settings as if that's the most likely culprit for the effect the OP describes just because he mention it being too sharp...

True but it's amazing the amount of people across many forums that have the sharpness 60+ thinking it's great.

However, I can never understand what all the rave I see from forum to forum about these Motion Plus features. It's the most unnatural effect when it's inserting false frames. Then more people get all giddy over 600Hz and so on.

With such features the TV's starts to bring on queasy feelings. Then the most amusing part is how so many people complained about The Hobbit with HFR. Yet they love their 200Hz and higher TV's…

 

[Uncle Petey]

People like big numbers I guess. It must be better, right?

 

[HecarimOP]

Some good advice here - cheers folks.

What about some 32" Smart TV recommendations then... I was originally looking at the Sony Bravia kdl32w654asu which was coming back at around £358 everywhere at the moment, but reviews show that you cannot actually disable the Soap Opera Effect (somehow connected to the 200Hz refresh rate).

What would be a suitable 'awesome tv' for a similar price bracket that will allow a decent picture without that SOE evilness?

I have this TV and I'm fairly certain there's no forced motion enhancement.

Not sure where you read that but there only seems to be one motion enhancement feature on this TV and it's useless so I leave it off (It is controllable in the settings menu).

I believe the forced motion enhancement thing came from something Sony said in response to users complaining about false advertising due to a lack of motion enhancements on this TV compared to the higher end models, even though they are advertised as the same ("Motionflow 200hz"). Sony claimed there is forced motionflow on all picture modes except 'game' and 'graphics'. I've tested this and can't find any difference between the picture modes, and the hdtv test review backs up these findings:

While we’re at it, we ran our custom “motion interpolation checker” pattern on the KDL42W653A, and verified that no forced motion interpolation took place in any of the [Scene Select] presets. Having no MCFI forcibly applied is particularly relevant for the [Cinema] mode which is our picture preset of choice for critical viewing – the last thing we want is for the cinematic quality of 24fps movies to be subverted by ugly soap opera effect.

Basically looks like Sony have lied. If you're not bothered about motionflow then this isn't a problem obviously.

Also, re the sharpness thing. It's technically not quite correct to say you should have sharpness at 0 on every TV. On some TV's a setting of 50 is actually the baseline setting, rather than 0. So anything more than 50 will apply sharpening, anything lower will apply softening. It is true though that if you are feeding the TV a high quality signal, such as Blu-ray 1080p, that you shouldn't sharpen the picture.

 

[Richdog]

About 2yrs ago a friend was demonstrating his new 40" Samsung LED TV. The screen physicalities were impressive - depth, colour, size, weight, features all good.

The main problem however was that movies looked fake and artificial - CGI looked absolutely fake; actors and the scenes looked like studios and it felt more like live theatre than (for instance) Iron Man 2.

Jump forward to 2 days ago, I'm looking at getting a replacement TV as my current one is too heavy to wall mount in the new house.

I'd eyed up a Sony Bravia KDL 32" on sale at various stores which ticked the box (about 1/3 the weight, 4 times the refresh rate, smart TV etc), and went to said big retail store. The displays there were all the same - simply too sharp. Whilst the picture quality was amazing, it wasn't engaging at all. Ironically, Iron Man was being demo'd on the screens and it looked like an amateur theatre session.

Has anyone else felt this, and is it something you can change or get used to?

As an owner of both a decent Panasonic plasma, and a decent Samsung LED I am well-placed to make some comparisons here.

First off: Plasmas are the best oveall for IQ... SD material looks as it should, and HD also looks fantastic... it has that cinematic effect which LED's often struggle to replicate.

However, you can get LED's very close. Using a good calibration guide off of the web I have got my colours and white balance pretty much spot on.

However, the most important thing to get it looking like right in movies is to simply disable the overscanning features that LED makers artificially add to get smoothness.... and which gives everything a "soap opera" effect. Disable those features and you are back to the low framerate goodness that you are undoubtedly used to.

Sharpness should indeed also be set to 0 for SD content on LED's, as that then gives it more of a CRT effect without losing detail from the original source quality, or adding any unnecessary noise either. Same with HD, a sharpness setting of 0 is natural... you lose or add nothing, so don't mess with it. And finally, LED's don't have the minute flickering that Plasmas have that I seem to be sometimes sensitive too. Finally, it's much better when using as a PC screen for obvious reasons.

After a couple of weeks with my Samsung has left me seriously impressed... especially given that the DLNA streaming and UK iPlayer/Netflix on-demand apps are effectively negating my need for a HTPC... I'm pretty stunned by that.

OLED will change everything, but until then the only LED I would personally buy is a good price/performance Samsung.

 

[Jase]

I'm not sure what 32" Sony you were looking at but the W8 is an amazing TV for that size, I really can't fault it.

The problem is as everyone has said, when you go into a TV store they have it set to demo mode ie stup contrast, sharpness.. some people think ooo that's nice and bright but like you and many more it make the picture look false.

Anyway, go back to the shop, ask them to put it in different "Scene" modes and you will see a massive difference.

I have 60" Pioneer Plasma TV which is reference yet last night I watched a movie on my 32" Sony W8 and it was very good! I use the TV mainly for my gaming consoles (for which its perfect) but it is such a good all-rounder I often find myself watching TV or a movie on it.