Nikkon Mirrorless incoming

Smeghead · 25 Jul 2018 at 12:51

Rumours of 2 flavours being released - A high end, 48MP one for $4000, and a "budget" 25MP one for $2500. They've had more than enough time to look at Sony's flaws. Let's see if they get it right from the get go.

Phate · 25 Jul 2018 at 16:24

Interested in this AND to see what Canon are brewing. I believe the Canon is due to be announced in Sept.

The_Abyss · 25 Jul 2018 at 22:06

With a different lens mount too. It feels a bit like a desperate attempt to slow the number of people buying into Sony tbh. This isn't an announcement - it is an announcement that they're going to be making an announcement with detail at some point in the future.

robj20 · 26 Jul 2018 at 07:30

Competition for Sony, finally. Not sure if it will effect pricing though as Sony still comes in cheaper. I'm not too heavily invested in Sony that switching would be too much of a hassle, just an A7R, 16-35f4, 24-70f4, and 35f2.8.
I have been holding out on Sony waiting for a global shutter for my next upgrade and i doubt Nikon will beat them to it, plus the cameras have been gaining weight since the Mk1s which i'm not happy about.
Be interesting to see what Nikon priorities with their cameras.

Schizo · 26 Jul 2018 at 07:33

The_Abyss said:
With a different lens mount too. It feels a bit like a desperate attempt to slow the number of people buying into Sony tbh. This isn't an announcement - it is an announcement that they're going to be making an announcement with detail at some point in the future.

You sound like Jared

jonneymendoza · 26 Jul 2018 at 07:58

Schizo said:
You sound like Jared

Jared would never say such a thing about his beloved Nikon!

Schizo · 26 Jul 2018 at 08:14

jonneymendoza said:
Jared would never say such a thing about his beloved Nikon!

Haven't you seen his new video about Nikon lol

The_Abyss · 26 Jul 2018 at 22:34

Schizo said:
You sound like Jared

I watched his video this afternoon, and yes, I think I do! But it still feels right, when you look at what Nikon have revealed and what they haven't revealed.

DJI did the same thing when they announced the Mavic Pro after GoPro announced their Karma drone. In that instance though, there was a genuinely good product behind it that just shipped a few weeks late. Is anyone going to get one of these Nikon mirrorless systems in their hands before Christmas? Let's see!

EsaT · 27 Jul 2018 at 09:22

The_Abyss said:
DJI did the same thing when they announced the Mavic Pro after GoPro announced their Karma drone. In that instance though, there was a genuinely good product behind it that just shipped a few weeks late. Is anyone going to get one of these Nikon mirrorless systems in their hands before Christmas? Let's see!

While Autel Evo announced and shown in CES with big hype wasn't actually released until just before mid summer.
So especially when nothing is even shown officially there's nothing firm about availability.

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 28 Jul 2018 at 07:38

For me terrible news. It means that Nikon will do what Sony did to the A mount and slowly kill it off over the next 5 years. I am not a rich amateur like many here who switch willy nilly or a pro,but I have a full frame Nikon and lenses,and it's the latter which I have a decent investment in,and was hoping to add more lenses too including some reasonably expensive tele lenses,which I can justify since I will keeping them for yonks. Plus the F mount has decades of lens to chose from on the secondhand market and some with specialist characteristics.It seems adaptors won't have full compatibility too.

So at this point I won't be investing in any new F mount lenses,unless I can recoup my costs back and the current system for me is on life support,and I will not be growing it like I thought I would over the next few years.

I already made some baby steps into the Fuji X system and I think I might move over to them eventually.

Edit!!

To those who think I am being pessimistic - I was on the Sony A mount and Sony dumped it quietly and I had a reasonable investment in lenses,and I knew people who much bigger investments who eventually got screwed over.

The same goes when Olympus quietly dumped 4/3 for m4/3.

Nikon will do the same.

Schizo · 28 Jul 2018 at 08:00

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
For me terrible news. It means that Nikon will do what Sony did to the A mount and slowly kill it off over the next 5 years. I am not a rich amateur like many here who switch willy nilly or a pro,but I have a full frame Nikon and lenses,and it's the latter which I have a decent investment in,and was hoping to add more lenses too including some reasonably expensive tele lenses,which I can justify since I will keeping them for yonks. Plus the F mount has decades of lens to chose from on the secondhand market and some with specialist characteristics.It seems adaptors won't have full compatibility too.

So at this point I won't be investing in any new F mount lenses,unless I can recoup my costs back and the current system for me is on life support,and I will not be growing it like I thought I would over the next few years.

I already made some baby steps into the Fuji X system and I think I might move over to them eventually.

Edit!!

To those who think I am being pessimistic - I was on the Sony A mount and Sony dumped it quietly and I had a reasonable investment in lenses,and I knew people who much bigger investments who eventually got screwed over.

The same goes when Olympus quietly dumped 4/3 for m4/3.

Nikon will do the same.

I'm with you on this one as well.

Not rich by any means but I like my canon and the amount of lens I can get,canon will probably go the same route but not for many years to come,DSLR will be around for quite a while.

i know nothing · 28 Jul 2018 at 13:59

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
For me terrible news. It means that Nikon will do what Sony did to the A mount and slowly kill it off over the next 5 years. I am not a rich amateur like many here who switch willy nilly or a pro,but I have a full frame Nikon and lenses,and it's the latter which I have a decent investment in,and was hoping to add more lenses too including some reasonably expensive tele lenses,which I can justify since I will keeping them for yonks. Plus the F mount has decades of lens to chose from on the secondhand market and some with specialist characteristics.It seems adaptors won't have full compatibility too.

So at this point I won't be investing in any new F mount lenses,unless I can recoup my costs back and the current system for me is on life support,and I will not be growing it like I thought I would over the next few years.

SNIP

Nikon will do the same.

I don't think you have much to worry about. FWIW, I consider myself in the same boat as you. I too have invested in a couple of FF lenses recently (as one day I intend to go FF) and my initial reaction was pretty much the same as yours, but the more I think about, the less worried I am. The figures being suggested are US$2,500 (£1,900) for the 24MP version and US$4,000 (£3,050) for the 45MP Pro one. I paid £550 for my D7100 24MP camera body. There is no way on earth I am going to fork out over a grand more than that for the latest mirrorless version. I can't even justify the current price of the D750! I'm ignoring the much more expensive mirrorless Pro version as I wouldn't even consider it because of the price range. Where's the benefit? I do not print anything bigger than 18" x 12", let's be honest, I don't even need what I've got now i.e. 24MP in order to do that!

Besides, Sony has one thing only that I would like to see Nikon introduce and that is eye AF, I couldn't care less about the rest of what they offer. If the next D7XX (assuming they replace the D750) has eye AF when I upgrade in 2 years time, and better low light (high ISO) performance than what it has now, I'll be happy.

Troezar · 28 Jul 2018 at 14:37

DSLR's are going nowhere. Some people will buy the mirrorless bodies but the vast majority either don't need them or can't afford them.

Nikon and Canon also have what Sony don't, a huge number of professionals and a massive back catalogue of lenses and accessories. The pros won't switch easily and the masses will still want to use all those perfectly good older lenses.

There isn't even a real weight saving asome a Sony body plus Sony lens can actually weigh more than some DSLR equivalents. There's also a minimum size that is easy to handle and grip.

I think all this innovation and competition with mirrorless is great but I think Nikon and Canon will run it alongside their existing offerings.

Raymond Lin · 28 Jul 2018 at 16:36

Troezar said:
DSLR's are going nowhere. Some people will buy the mirrorless bodies but the vast majority either don't need them or can't afford them.

Nikon and Canon also have what Sony don't, a huge number of professionals and a massive back catalogue of lenses and accessories. The pros won't switch easily and the masses will still want to use all those perfectly good older lenses.

There isn't even a real weight saving asome a Sony body plus Sony lens can actually weigh more than some DSLR equivalents. There's also a minimum size that is easy to handle and grip.

I think all this innovation and competition with mirrorless is great but I think Nikon and Canon will run it alongside their existing offerings.

I don't think DSLR will disappear, like manual or film cameras hasn't disappear. However the market will shift towards more mirrorless as time goes on, it will move on at a even faster rate when global sensor becomes common place. In 10 years from now I foresee mirrorless will dominate the market and whatever mount that has will be the next standard.

The weight saving…as a system, if you have to have wide fast lenses, no. the weight is negligible and that really only apply during the early generations of mirrorless when they were all m4/3 or APSC. By nature those lenses are smaller and the bodies too, but as the sensor gets larger, the body grew and even the Sony body grew too to accommodate IBIS and larger battery. I would never recommend going FF mirrorless (not APSC mirrorless) for size and weight, it is counter intuitive if you look at Sigma FE mount lenses….

What mirrorless brings is advancement of tech in focusing, the D/SLR tech has been refined over the refined over the past 50+ years. Mirrorless has been around for less than 10 and IMO has already surpass DSLR in a lot of ways in terms of focusing, the way to capture the focus, the number of focus points possible, the FPS possible without a mirror box.

DSLR won't die overnight, the Canon FD mount didn't die overnight but slowly people did and have moved to the EOS mount purely because people in general do upgrade and the next generation of photographers won't know about DSLR like the kids now wouldn't know about tape, Laserdisc, VCD, VHS etc.

Troezar · 28 Jul 2018 at 16:42

Raymond Lin said:
I don't think DSLR will disappear, like manual or film cameras hasn't disappear. However the market will shift towards more mirrorless as time goes on, it will move on at a even faster rate when global sensor becomes common place. In 10 years from now I foresee mirrorless will dominate the market and whatever mount that has will be the next standard.

The weight saving…as a system, if you have to have wide fast lenses, no. the weight is negligible and that really only apply during the early generations of mirrorless when they were all m4/3 or APSC. By nature those lenses are smaller and the bodies too, but as the sensor gets larger, the body grew and even the Sony body grew too to accommodate IBIS and larger battery. I would never recommend going FF mirrorless (not APSC mirrorless) for size and weight, it is counter intuitive if you look at Sigma FE mount lenses….

What mirrorless brings is advancement of tech in focusing, the D/SLR tech has been refined over the refined over the past 50+ years. Mirrorless has been around for less than 10 and IMO has already surpass DSLR in a lot of ways in terms of focusing, the way to capture the focus, the number of focus points possible, the FPS possible without a mirror box.

DSLR won't die overnight, the Canon FD mount didn't die overnight but slowly people did and have moved to the EOS mount purely because people in general do upgrade and the next generation of photographers won't know about DSLR like the kids now wouldn't know about tape, Laserdisc, VCD, VHS etc.

Good points. As you say it will be a gradual shift and I can see the evolution of mirrorless taking the best of the new and the old. I'd really like to see them bring down prices, I'm sure they could make it back in increased sales.

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 28 Jul 2018 at 16:57

Schizo said:
I'm with you on this one as well.

Not rich by any means but I like my canon and the amount of lens I can get,canon will probably go the same route but not for many years to come,DSLR will be around for quite a while.

I will be watching what happens with the F mount carefully for the next few years,but if the Z mount replaces it,then I might as well consider other systems too,since it is essentially a new system for me.

i know nothing said:
I don't think you have much to worry about. FWIW, I consider myself in the same boat as you. I too have invested in a couple of FF lenses recently (as one day I intend to go FF) and my initial reaction was pretty much the same as yours, but the more I think about, the less worried I am. The figures being suggested are US$2,500 (£1,900) for the 24MP version and US$4,000 (£3,050) for the 45MP Pro one. I paid £550 for my D7100 24MP camera body. There is no way on earth I am going to fork out over a grand more than that for the latest mirrorless version. I can't even justify the current price of the D750! I'm ignoring the much more expensive mirrorless Pro version as I wouldn't even consider it because of the price range. Where's the benefit? I do not print anything bigger than 18" x 12", let's be honest, I don't even need what I've got now i.e. 24MP in order to do that!

Besides, Sony has one thing only that I would like to see Nikon introduce and that is eye AF, I couldn't care less about the rest of what they offer. If the next D7XX (assuming they replace the D750) has eye AF when I upgrade in 2 years time, and better low light (high ISO) performance than what it has now, I'll be happy.

The problem is I am on a D600/D610 which was a £1000 to £1500 body for a while,and I am waiting to see what the replacement for the D600/D610/D750 is like - the problem is the lower end mirrorless might delay the replacement body for that,or even replace it. Also,the investment in lenses in the future - I like the look of the Nikon 200-500mm,but at well over £1000+ if the F mount is going to get depreciated in a few years time,I am going to stick with my current lens.

Plus the other aspect I am used to very long battery life which mirrorless cameras still don't have. I have shot a whole airshow or even an event(12 hours) on one battery in hot weather,whereas the mirrorless backup camera I have needs more batteries.

Troezar said:
DSLR's are going nowhere. Some people will buy the mirrorless bodies but the vast majority either don't need them or can't afford them.

Nikon and Canon also have what Sony don't, a huge number of professionals and a massive back catalogue of lenses and accessories. The pros won't switch easily and the masses will still want to use all those perfectly good older lenses.

There isn't even a real weight saving asome a Sony body plus Sony lens can actually weigh more than some DSLR equivalents. There's also a minimum size that is easy to handle and grip.

I think all this innovation and competition with mirrorless is great but I think Nikon and Canon will run it alongside their existing offerings.

I hope so but Sony did have professional A mount cameras and very expensive professional lenses(and decades of Minolta ones too),and the same with Olympus and 4/3.

They literally dumped those users on the side.

i know nothing · 28 Jul 2018 at 17:39

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
I will be watching what happens with the F mount carefully for the next few years,but if the Z mount replaces it, then I might as well consider other systems too, since it is essentially a new system for me.

Ditto. And I suspect Nikon will do everything they can to retain people like us. Otherwise they might just end up with another Nikon 1 system type failure all over again, albeit a FF one.

Raymond Lin · 28 Jul 2018 at 17:43

Troezar said:
Good points. As you say it will be a gradual shift and I can see the evolution of mirrorless taking the best of the new and the old. I'd really like to see them bring down prices, I'm sure they could make it back in increased sales.

The A73 IMO is the turning point for not just mirrorless but the whole FF camera industry, it sets the standard really what you get for £2k, when that camera gets replaced it will be an utter bargain. The way Sony updates their bodies too it won’t take long.

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 28 Jul 2018 at 20:14

Hmm:

Stopped-down Focusing
When utilizing continuous autofocus on the a7 III, one thing to bear in mind is that when using smaller apertures, the camera does not open up the lens for focusing. Because this means that the autofocus system is getting less light, and decreased phase separation between 'left' and 'right' (or 'up' and 'down') looking pixels, it can result in an image that is inaccurately focused. The example below is back-focused, but the focus inaccuracy can just as easily result in front-focus. This is unfortunately exacerbated in backlit situations, where the AF system is already stressed by a drop in subject contrast.

This image was photographed in AF-C, but for depth-of-field, the photographer wanted to use F5.6. The individual's shoulder is clearly sharper than his nose, and as such, is back-focused. A similar shot resulted in front-focus. Stop-down focusing should theoretically increase focus accuracy, but in low light or low contrast situations, it can ironically decrease accuracy.

In our controlled testing with both the Sony a7 III and a7R III, we found that there is no native Sony FE lens that focuses wide-open in AF-C. For reference, wide-open focusing is standard practice on DSLRs (as well as Canon and Olympus mirrorless), and allows the AF system to consistently get the most light available, and the best phase separation possible, regardless of the user's settings. Look-up tables in the lens can correct for any focus shift that results from stopping the lens down.

Unfortunately, there's no workaround for this other than to revert to the slower AF-S,1 which focuses wide open.2 A commonly held misbelief is that setting 'Live View Settings Effect' to 'off' remedies the issue, but it doesn't for AF-C: all it does is force the initial focus acquisition to be done wide open, but then stops the lens down immediately thereafter, potentially throwing off focus - or causing hunting from reversion to CDAF - if continuous focus struggles at the smaller aperture. Furthermore, this disables one of the eminent advantages of mirrorless: being able to preview your exposure or depth of field.

For the airshow work I do,it does involved stopped down focusing due to the need to take pictures of planes with props,in certain conditions!

Looks like I will need to wait a bit longer if this is the best mirrorless can do - luckily I can wait a while!!

i know nothing said:
Ditto. And I suspect Nikon will do everything they can to retain people like us. Otherwise they might just end up with another Nikon 1 system type failure all over again, albeit a FF one.

Whereas for the sake of Nikon I wouldn't want a failure for them,at the same time I don't want to be lumbered with a large investment in a system which is going to be let out to pasture!

Energize · 29 Jul 2018 at 02:03

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
For me terrible news. It means that Nikon will do what Sony did to the A mount and slowly kill it off over the next 5 years. I am not a rich amateur like many here who switch willy nilly or a pro,but I have a full frame Nikon and lenses,and it's the latter which I have a decent investment in,and was hoping to add more lenses too including some reasonably expensive tele lenses,which I can justify since I will keeping them for yonks. Plus the F mount has decades of lens to chose from on the secondhand market and some with specialist characteristics.It seems adaptors won't have full compatibility too.

So at this point I won't be investing in any new F mount lenses,unless I can recoup my costs back and the current system for me is on life support,and I will not be growing it like I thought I would over the next few years.

I already made some baby steps into the Fuji X system and I think I might move over to them eventually.

Edit!!

To those who think I am being pessimistic - I was on the Sony A mount and Sony dumped it quietly and I had a reasonable investment in lenses,and I knew people who much bigger investments who eventually got screwed over.

The same goes when Olympus quietly dumped 4/3 for m4/3.

Nikon will do the same.

The Nikon F mount is currently a train wreck where new lenses don't work on slightly older bodies, and slighter older lenses don't work on newer bodies, the Nikon lens/body compatibility charts are now more complex than the periodic table of elements. Holding on the relic of the F mount for compatibilities sake is self-defeating when half the lenses only half work as it currently is!