Nikkon Mirrorless incoming

Soldato
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The Nikon F mount is currently a train wreck where new lenses don't work on slightly older bodies, and slighter older lenses don't work on newer bodies, the Nikon lens/body compatibility charts are now more complex than the periodic table of elements. Holding on the relic of the F mount for compatibilities sake is self-defeating when half the lenses only half work as it currently is!

I have no issue with my D600/D610 - it even had a firmware update for the P series lenses. I have everything from a 20 year old lens(which is one of the most flare resistant I have ever used and does fantastic sunstars) to one which was not released that long ago!! :p

The 20MM/F1.8 and 200-500MM/F5.6 all work fine(after quickly) trying them out in shops,but if the Z mount is the de-facto mount and the F mount is being replaced in the next few years,I am holding off buying them and sticking with my current gear. I was probably going to get the lenses at some point on the existing camera,and then upgrade the body later. Like a number of us less richer enthusiasts things go in a stepwise manner with system upgrades.

Plus forcing existing users onto a new mount only really 100% works in Nikon's favour for people who are just fans of Nikon for being Nikon - I am not a pro and neither do I consider myself much of a camera gearhead with a mahoosive camera budget. I like Nikon but if I need to change to another mount,I don't have any loyalty to them as I will consider alternatives - currently I am locked into their mount and I suspect many people who are with Nikon are.

Its not to say I won't switch to the Z mount either,but then all the other companies will have an equal chance too.
 
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Associate
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When you say there isn’t much weight difference, I’m looking to add to the A7Rii after selling two a7’s. I tried the D850 yesterday and I won’t even comment (almost twice the weight and size).
I want to add the 24-70 to my Sony bag but at £1880 I could get a lot of used canon glass :(
I have a feeling Nikon will be in the same boat regarding glass prices and not being able to use the old stuff people already have it will stop a lot of people. It’s like switching platform so which some may end up doing.
 
Caporegime
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When you say there isn’t much weight difference, I’m looking to add to the A7Rii after selling two a7’s. I tried the D850 yesterday and I won’t even comment (almost twice the weight and size).
I want to add the 24-70 to my Sony bag but at £1880 I could get a lot of used canon glass :(
I have a feeling Nikon will be in the same boat regarding glass prices and not being able to use the old stuff people already have it will stop a lot of people. It’s like switching platform so which some may end up doing.

Well, by weight I mean the system. You will be carrying 1 or 2 bodies but a lot more lenses so in terms of percentages the lenses makes up the majority of the weight.

aJfcsFa.jpg

And in this photo I don't even have the 85/1.4 G-Master.

35mm and 50mm, all F/1.4

0k0tMXo.jpg

And the Sigma 50/1.4 FE is another inch taller.

So whilst you might save 300g, 500g on the body, that's all you are saving. However I do concede that should you want to make the Sony small, I can put on a 35/2.8 and make that tiny, smaller than the X-T1 with a 23/1.4.
 
Associate
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Not interested in the slightest about this. Size/weight doesn't bother me. My D750 is still going strong with a 16-35mm & a 24-70mm. Fantastic kit.

My upgrade path will be a used D850 in a few years and a 70-200mm.
 
Caporegime
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I have no issue with my D600/D610 - it even had a firmware update for the P series lenses. I have everything from a 20 year old lens(which is one of the most flare resistant I have ever used and does fantastic sunstars) to one which was not released that long ago!! :p

The 20MM/F1.8 and 200-500MM/F5.6 all work fine(after quickly) trying them out in shops,but if the Z mount is the de-facto mount and the F mount is being replaced in the next few years,I am holding off buying them and sticking with my current gear. I was probably going to get the lenses at some point on the existing camera,and then upgrade the body later. Like a number of us less richer enthusiasts things go in a stepwise manner with system upgrades.

Plus forcing existing users onto a new mount only really 100% works in Nikon's favour for people who are just fans of Nikon for being Nikon - I am not a pro and neither do I consider myself much of a camera gearhead with a mahoosive camera budget. I like Nikon but if I need to change to another mount,I don't have any loyalty to them as I will consider alternatives - currently I am locked into their mount and I suspect many people who are with Nikon are.

Its not to say I won't switch to the Z mount either,but then all the other companies will have an equal chance too.

Having to wait for firmware updates for things like AF-P lenses is a PIA, old fisheye lenses will break the camera, pre AI lenses won't mount, and all the crop bodies except the the D7000/D500 don't have an AF motor so most lenses older than 2000 don't work with them, it's a mess that I as a Nikon user have become jaded with. The ability to use ancient lenses with crappy optical quality is just not a big attraction to me. The Sigma lenses are so much better choices than many of the Nikon lenses that I'm not even using Nikon lenses much on my D610, it would be far better if Nikon switched to a new mount which all new lenses were compatible with.

As much as I find Ken Rockwell to be odious he does have useful table which shows how ridiculous the Nikon system is https://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/compatibility-lens.htm#explanations
 
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Soldato
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Having to wait for firmware updates for things like AF-P lenses is a PIA, old fisheye lenses will break the camera, pre AI lenses won't mount, and all the crop bodies except the the D7000/D500 don't have an AF motor so most lenses older than 2000 don't work with them, it's a mess that I as a Nikon user have become jaded with. The ability to use ancient lenses with crappy optical quality is just not a big attraction to me. The Sigma lenses are so much better choices than many of the Nikon lenses that I'm not even using Nikon lenses much on my D610, it would be far better if Nikon switched to a new mount which all new lenses were compatible with.

As much as I find Ken Rockwell to be odious he does have useful table which shows how ridiculous the Nikon system is https://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/compatibility-lens.htm#explanations

YOU have an issue with this. You are making up fringe issues,just like a number of people on DPReview due to GAS.

This is the same logic as in the CPU and GPU forums,where people will make anything which is "old" look like is incapable of even running Tux Racer. Old meaning something 2 to 3 years old.

So people who think Haswell was crap since they jumped to Ryzen and now Ryzen is crap since they jumped to CFL.

Your mention about "waiting for AF-P" lenses sounds very reasonable until you look at what AF-P lenses are for.

There are only a few AF-P lenses:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/lenses/lens-articles/general-nikon-lens-info/understanding-the-af-p.html

Most of the AF-P lenses are low cost lenses made for the D3000/D5000 series and DX which is irrelevant for an FX body and they are cheaper budget lenses. The one which works on FX is also an entry level lens.Then you go on "optical quality",which means you wouldn't bother with them too.

Then you go on about pre-AI,LMAO. I know people who were pros back in the day,who used pre-AI lenses. They were made until 1977,and many pros,etc paid for such lenses to be updated. But lets,see that is 40 years ago.

So what about the last 4 to 20 years then?? Oh wait.

Also crappy lenses - LMAO.

Plenty of decent solid "older" lenses from the last 4 to 20 years - people were getting wall covering prints from film cameras with "crappy" lenses decades ago.

You don't seem to even consider that not all situations even need AF like tilt/shift lenses,astro stuff or even macro stuff at times.

I go to airshows and talk to actual realworld photographers who shot a whole lot of lenses - some with the latest stuff to those with "older" lenses and plenty of D600/D610/D750/D800/D810 users.

Like people with "old crappy" 600MM lenses - oh wait,in realworld people just don't always upgrade to the latest ones,even if they are not pros.

Do you think all of them have the latest lens - that includes ones with published work.

Why should THEY waste money on new lenses if the old ones do the job. More money on new lenses means less profit.

People on this forum told people not to go Sony,Pentax,etc since they "lacked a secondhand market for lenses" and "secondhand lenses sold for more",etc and now the moment Nikon wants to ditch the F mount,its suddenly "not important".

Only gearheads on the internet ditch systems immediately,or just all the time shoot brick walls all the time getting neurotic about whether the latest Sigma has 5% more LPM than a 4 year old Nikon.

I had no issues making largish prints with "crappy old lenses" which shows you how much you know about lenses and is a bit elitist TBF.

Oh wait,I still see famous old pictures being sold as prints,despite being made on "old crappy gear".

Edit!

Predicts silly argument about how anybody who does not buy the latest lenses with the best LPM tests on a brick wall isn't capable of any photography,and how they must switch to the latest Z mount or whatever mount camera since anyone who isn't on the latest camera gadget isn't a true photographer.
 
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Associate
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What he said lol!

Completely agree about only gear heads on the internet ditching systems immediately then making endless posts trying to justify their expensive new purchases.

We live in a society where from a very young age we're conditioned to want the supposed next best thing and grown men are changing entire camera systems to save a few grams..

Edit: expects the usual feeble arguments about how the tiny saving in size and weight is oh so needed and yes, i have shot professionally all day with my humongous camera with a mirror in it. It was absolutely fine.
 
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Soldato
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What he said lol!

Completely agree about only gear heads on the internet ditching systems immediately then making endless posts trying to justify their expensive new purchases.

We live in a society where from a very young age we're conditioned to want the supposed next best thing and grown men are changing entire camera systems to save a few grams..


I mean we might all have a slight degree of GAS,but I honestly think its getting to somewhat silly levels. Looking at the description of anything but the latest lenses release in the last year on forums,you would think a number of older lenses released in the last 4 to 10 years have the sharpness of a blob of slightly warm jelly, when if anyone looked at printed pictures from these,they are sharp lenses with generally good optical characteristics.

Plus with things like PS and modern software,some of the things like distortion,etc are far more easy to correct unlike 20 years ago.

How about all the people who would want that latest £1000 to £2000 lens released now,but have to make do with perhaps buying the slightly older version instead secondhand. That happens in the realworld,hence why all the people buying new gear can sell their old ones.

Plus if you go on like this,in another year there will be a "better" lens than the one you got today. So does that mean you just start throwing away pictures or re-shooting them since they are "worse".

Another issue,it is also the fact that on this very forum and elsewhere people have pushed people away from certain brands since the "secondhand market for lenses is crap,and that is important since you have a range of secondhand lenses to fit your budget if you cannot get new"and "you can easily sell your old lenses due to more potential buyers" or "they have a choice of secondhand camera bodies like full frame as an upgrade path so can use the lenses" but apparently Canikon are fine if they break that rule. I wonder how many bought into Canikon due to this?
Edit: expects the usual feeble arguments about how the tiny saving in size and weight is oh so needed and yes, i have shot professionally all day with my humongous camera with a mirror in it. It was absolutely fine.

:D
 
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Caporegime
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I have never understood what works on what on Nikon. Not really sure if that’s just me or their PR problem.
Mostly it is just propagand form Canon fanboys.

Basically every Nikon lens will work on any new Nikon camera.
There are numerous caveats that are all pretty obvious though. An autofocus lens wont autofocus on a camera made before auotofocus existed. If you use a VR lens on a camera made before VR existed then VR wont work.If you use a manual focus lens on an autofocus camera you don;t magically get autofocus. If you buy a totally manual lens form the 1960s then you will have to manually control exposure.

The lenses are clearly labeled with their features. none of it is harder than knowing any of the differences in camera terminology, e.g. AF-S those AF-C
 
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Caporegime
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I'm also worried about the change in mount. This might really backfire on Nikon and I just don't really see the advantage. Nikon's strongest selling point is the huge lens inventory and use of legacy lenses without any adapter. Remove that back catalogue and really what is going to eb the difference between a Nikon or a Sony mirrorless? They will all use the same sensors, same autofocus technology, same EVFs etc.

It is likely Nikon will have an adapter but I am extremely dubious. No adapter has ever worked flawlessly. The only small hope was the F-mount adapter for the Nikon 1 was probably still the best adapter around. However, one of the underlying issues is with the shorter flange distance the microlens array will change gteatly, so a f-mount lens put on the new mirrorless will be subject to many of the same optical issues that canon lenses on Sony A7 has.

But i kind foi expect Nikon to keep DSLRs at the high end for a long time to come. Tghe low end will move mirrorless only because it is cheaper. There will be high end mirrorless alongside DSLRs.
 
Associate
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I'm also worried about the change in mount. This might really backfire on Nikon and I just don't really see the advantage. Nikon's strongest selling point is the huge lens inventory and use of legacy lenses without any adapter. Remove that back catalogue and really what is going to eb the difference between a Nikon or a Sony mirrorless? They will all use the same sensors, same autofocus technology, same EVFs etc.

It is likely Nikon will have an adapter but I am extremely dubious. No adapter has ever worked flawlessly. The only small hope was the F-mount adapter for the Nikon 1 was probably still the best adapter around. However, one of the underlying issues is with the shorter flange distance the microlens array will change gteatly, so a f-mount lens put on the new mirrorless will be subject to many of the same optical issues that canon lenses on Sony A7 has.

But i kind foi expect Nikon to keep DSLRs at the high end for a long time to come. Tghe low end will move mirrorless only because it is cheaper. There will be high end mirrorless alongside DSLRs.

I'm hoping that they are able to take advantage the new mount to make better lenses. Either with more features (waterproof like the nikonAW1) or lighter and smaller (ala the newer 3004f with the PE glass in it)
If this is a cynical ploy to sell loads more lenses then ill be disappointed, I'm hoping the new mount brings some benefits.

Personally I've just ended up with a D500 (7100 got nicked) so I'm expecting to stick with F mount for some considerable time.
But I was happy with the 7100 and the D500 is better still, the limitations of my photos are me and not my kit.

Hopefully as the new mount takes off with the pro's and they sell their old lenses.
If I start saving now ill eventually be able to pick up a 400 2.8 or for less than I paid for my car.

Obviously I'm assuming that Nikon have produced something decent, if its a failure then all bets are off....
 
Caporegime
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YOU have an issue with this. You are making up fringe issues,just like a number of people on DPReview due to GAS.

I don't have time to respond to that massive rant, but I want a mount where everything just works without having to install firmware updates and read up on compatibility issues. You lumping me in with people who ditch entire systems is pure ad-hom.

The people that are hit the worst as you say are the more budget end with crop cameras, I don't think it's a good thing that people entering the SLR market find that the AF-P lens they bought doesn't work with their D5200 for example or the cheaper pre AF-S lenses that fit their budget don't autofocus on it.


Yeah there some great lenses made in the last 20 years, but the average person does not have a 600mm prime, many of the older lenses don't stand up to the test of time.

And fyi I own a 70-300mm lens.
 
Caporegime
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Budget users don't have the issues because they just buy the standard DX lenses DX.

The AF-P lenses are unfortunate but has absolutely nothing to do with the mount. It is just like camera made before VR don't have the ability to control VR so it has to be switched off. You can't just make a new lens mount every few years when there is a new technology about.
 
Caporegime
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I'm hoping that they are able to take advantage the new mount to make better lenses. Either with more features (waterproof like the nikonAW1) or lighter and smaller (ala the newer 3004f with the PE glass in it)
If this is a cynical ploy to sell loads more lenses then ill be disappointed, I'm hoping the new mount brings some benefits.

Personally I've just ended up with a D500 (7100 got nicked) so I'm expecting to stick with F mount for some considerable time.
But I was happy with the 7100 and the D500 is better still, the limitations of my photos are me and not my kit.

Hopefully as the new mount takes off with the pro's and they sell their old lenses.
If I start saving now ill eventually be able to pick up a 400 2.8 or for less than I paid for my car.

Obviously I'm assuming that Nikon have produced something decent, if its a failure then all bets are off....


The lenses wont really be any lighter or smaller. There is a possibility that something like a 35mm could be made slightly smaller because it wouldn't need to be a retro-focus design (lenses with a focal length shorter than the flange distance are more complex) but modern lens design typically ends up making such lenses retro-focus anyway - see the size of modern 50mm lenses compared to the versions from the 80s. The opposite tends to actually be the case, a 100mm lens needs the front element 100mm away form the sensor, if the flange distance decreases form 45 to 20mm then the lens will need to be made 25mm longer. You actually see this on a fair few of the Sony lenses.

The new mount is supposedly wider in diameter. That could allow wider aperture lenses and maintain autofocus. So a 50mm f/1.1 might become feasible for example. The Canon 85mm f1.2 is barely possible and that can be seen with ugly highlight bokeh where the lens mount clear leads to asymetric bokeh balls. However, such lenses would be very expensive, heavy and personally I don't really see the value. Super fast lenses were popular in the film days in order to get enough light as even at ISO 800 film was very grainy. The DoF gets so thin that it becomes unweildly to use and the end results are frequently pretty dull. The fad of images with razor thin DoF are going out of fashion luckily.


The real key to lighter lenses is as you say, Phase-fresnel technology. I have the 300mm PF and is is amazing. weighs the same as a 70-300mm f/5.6, it is unbelievable how light it is. This literally far outweighs any gains form loosing a mirror assembly. I am very excited by the 500mm f.5.6 PF lenses. and would liekly trade my 300mm PF for it.
 
Associate
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As a Nikon DSLR user for the last 15 or so years I have just sold up and gone Sony Mirrorless.

Nikons F mount was one of the factors in all my previous Nikon body purchases. I always went for ones with an AF screw and aperture feeler (D50, D90, D7000) so I wasn't limited to the slightly overpriced DX (crop) lenses or other other more modern lenses. Interestingly as the years have gone by Nikon gradually removed this from it's cameras, slowly working there way up the range from entry level to mid level.

Backwards compatibility and adaptability was a key factor in my A7 purchase too as most of Sony's lenses cost the same as I paid for my A7 or more! I have 2 older manual focus lenses (as well as the kit 28-70) and I'm really enjoying my A7 and finding MF much easier with the evfs magnifying ability (and peaking to a lesser extent). My 2 manual focus lenses cost me a total of £75 (plus a £25 adapter) which is the main attraction of backwards compatibility to me. Whilst I agree that the F mount is pretty old, Nikon will be shooting their self in the foot if they make it hard to adapt or use their existing lenses as they are not going to tempt any existing Nikon dslr users (with a bag full of expensive lens they have built up over the years) over. Sony didn't/don't really have this problem as they are poaching users from the competition who are starting a fresh with a new system anyway.

Dave
 
Caporegime
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Budget users don't have the issues because they just buy the standard DX lenses DX.

The AF-P lenses are unfortunate but has absolutely nothing to do with the mount. It is just like camera made before VR don't have the ability to control VR so it has to be switched off. You can't just make a new lens mount every few years when there is a new technology about.

I'd disagree and say budget users are affected the most. For example if you want a fast prime the fx 50mm f/1.8d is half the price of the dx 35mm f/1.8g, so the budget users are forced to pay more in order to get AF.

Ofc new features like vr may not be supported on older bodies but the af-p lenses are crippled on great bodies like the d7000, they actually have less functionality than a normal lens!

You're right that it's not actually a mount issue, but it highlights nikon's compatibility issues. Do Canon or Sony have these same problems?

I love many of Nikon's products but I can't help but feel that holding on to a mount for compatibilites sake doesn't make sense when compatibility issues already exist on the F mount.
 
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Soldato
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I'm sticking with canon DSLR,had to many brands and even a Sony A6000 but I'm very happy with my canon now,to much investment for me to change....plus it's grief selling and buying all the time.
 
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