NVIDIA ‘Ampere’ 8nm Graphics Cards

[Troezar]

I agree with most of your points.

But I would argue that in single player games, somebody with an Xbox Series X, plugged in to an LG C9/C10 is going to get a much better visual experience than somebody playing at 1080p on a 240hz panel, unless they are some sort of elite pro competitive gamer.

Not to mention that PC multiplayer games are plagued with hacks and bots, which you simply don't get on a closed system like Xbox or Playstation.

Agreed, I think for that reason the GPUs aimed at low to mid tier are going to have to be much cheaper. The high end is in a category of its own. I hate the botting and hacking on PC, puts me off multiplayer even though I love the competitive online stuff.

 

[VincentHanna]

Yeah, that’s what 980Ti owners said, then the 1070 came out. Apart from the lacklustre 20 series it has always been like this. Let’s see what happens, nvidia have a lot more competition this time

GPU prices are weird.

In 2015 I paid £800 each for some Maxwell Titan X's, and the 1070 came out in mid 2016 and were faster than the TitanX/980Ti for £350ish?

Anyway, I sold those Titan X Maxwell GPU's (individually) on ebay this year and both sold for more than £300....it's like they drop to a certain level and then stay there for years and years.

 

[Troezar]

I didn't say it was either/or for everyone, I'm just saying I predominantly play on PC and the games I play are not available on console, the games we play on console are not available on PC, the person that I originally responded to was saying consoles are better than PC's, I was pointing out they are different things

people keep saying cost/performance wise there's no reason to buy a PC, which is irrelevant and not true

I don't think we totally disagree. If you want the best and can afford it there is no competition to a high end PC. Therefore I don't see prices for the higher end charging much other than both players being more competitive. I can however see them both having to compete with the consoles at the low to mid range.

My personal opinion is is these lower tier cards that AMD is aiming to be the "Nvidia killer". Small die, high yield, cheap to produce and big sales. I may be wrong of course

 

[melmac]

As i said in the big Navi thread:



PC Gaming is not in the same good health it once was, that's down to escalating costs, 10 years ago a high end card like a 5870 would cost you £250, today all that gets you is a low mid tier card, even a mid range card is £500, todays 5870 is £1200.

I would say Consoles could kill off PC gaming, but we will do that to ourselves firstly with our fickle fanboyisum..... even after the 290 series got AIB cooling the memes and ridicule remained relentless despite those cards being really very good by any measure, even today with new cards on the way from AMD people are already posting those same tired overused memes in anticipation, there are people, a small but very loud number of people who just don't want AMD there at all let alone competitive, those are the people who will kill our community / Hoby because AMD no longer care, they are side stepping us. and of course Nvidia with 0 competition GPU pricing has increase five fold in just 10 years.... yes we played our part in that.

Aren't you been very selective with your poor AMD statements? What about all the memes about woodscrews, space invaders, vaseline memes, all the memes about the GTX 480, the 970 memory, RTX on/RTX off. The Fanboy nonsense exist on both sides of the fence. There are as many AMD fanatics spouting rubbish as there are Nvidia Fanatics.

The 290 had serious launch problems, black screens, extremely loud because the fans had to work so hard. By the time the custom coolers came out the damage was done. And this has been a constant problem with AMD for the last few generations, Polaris, Vega, Fury. Too many issues at launch.

PC gaming is not in good health? It's larger than it ever wise and continues to grow. Steam is growing year on year.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I don't think we totally disagree. If you want the best and can afford it there is no competition to a high end PC. Therefore I don't see prices for the higher end charging much other than both players being more competitive. I can however see them both having to compete with the consoles at the low to mid range.

My personal opinion is is these lower tier cards that AMD is aiming to be the "Nvidia killer". Small die, high yield, cheap to produce and big sales. I may be wrong of course

To put in context,a RTX2080 Super is only 40% faster than an RX5600XT at 1080p. So if the next £250~£350 upper mainstream/lower highend GPU can't match an RTX2080 Super,then it will be a bit of a fail,for a new generation.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

PS5 is to PC graphics as knives are to homing briefcases. Infinitely better in every way. Plus we have actual keyboards.

That's the kicker for me, If the next console have full mouse & keyboard support I'll be very happy, I bought a PS4 & a Xim Apex but it was too slow to respond so all I did was waste a load of money.
I won't be doing that again.

Yeah they need mouse and keyboard, you just can't play the likes of Far Cry 5 with a controller.

Not sure if you are aware but the current gen consoles do support Keyboard and mouse, the catch is that it is up to the developer to implement keybindings for them in their games.

 

[TNA]

GPU prices are weird.

In 2015 I paid £800 each for some Maxwell Titan X's, and the 1070 came out in mid 2016 and were faster than the TitanX/980Ti for £350ish?

Anyway, I sold those Titan X Maxwell GPU's (individually) on ebay this year and both sold for more than £300....it's like they drop to a certain level and then stay there for years and years.

Yeah. I had Titan XP which I sold about 15 months ago (not far of breaking even keeping this, mainly lost out of postage as I recall as I got it on members market myself). Had I kept it for another year or until now it would have only depreciated by only another £60- 80. But hard to predict because first I never expected that the second hand market would keep the value as much as it has due to people willing to pay near full price. Secondly because at the time I expected the 30 series to be released Q1 2020 and as I did not have any triple a games I wanted to play, I sold up.

Yeah the 1070 were around £350, I managed to get a premium Zotac extreme edition brand new on release for around £380 as I recall and sold it for £300 after about a year. Have had lots of different GPU’s since. This time I will likely just keep the 3070 for 2 years at least until imminent release of the next gen cards, then sell and pop my RX 580 back in. This works for me as I don’t do multi player and play single player so no issues just playing older games for a while if need be.

 

[VincentHanna]

To put in context,a RTX2080 Super is only 40% faster than an RX5600XT at 1080p. So if the next £250~£350 upper mainstream/lower highend GPU can't match an RTX2080 Super,then it will be a bit of a fail,for a new generation.

How much faster at 4k though?

 

[Troezar]

To put in context,a RTX2080 Super is only 40% faster than an RX5600XT at 1080p. So if the next £250~£350 upper mainstream/lower highend GPU can't match an RTX2080 Super,then it will be a bit of a fail,for a new generation.

I agree, it also needs to be priced correctly. If I'm a 3600, 16GB RAM, 1080p gamer I'd say £250-£350 is reasonable for a GPU. More than that I'm thinking PS5. At that price they need to bring around 2080 speeds and console equivalent ray tracing to sell well. No idea if that's possible but it's more likely now than it has been for some time.

 

[humbug]

To put in context,a RTX2080 Super is only 40% faster than an RX5600XT at 1080p. So if the next £250~£350 upper mainstream/lower highend GPU can't match an RTX2080 Super,then it will be a bit of a fail,for a new generation.

RE: your slide: this gaggle of GTX 1080TI's

GTX 1080TI: £650.

2070: £400
5700XT: £400
Vega VII: £650... what even was that?
2070 Super: £500

That's a little bunch of 1080TI's now £400 to £500 so there has been some good movement on price to be fair but the 2080TI at 30 to 35% faster than all of those at £1200?

3X the price nets me another 30%! Idiotic...

 

[lovelyhead]

I can't see the 3070 only being £500, if its about equal to a £1200+ 2080Ti.

It needs to be.

My current system is a GTX 1080 and a Ryzen 3600 plus a GSync monitor. I am looking for an upgrade this year so I have a choice of either a new console or a upgrading my computer.

After selling my old parts for about £300 and upgrading to an 8 core CPU, I would have £500 to spend to keep parity with the price of the new consoles (assuming they are priced at £500). If the RTX 3070 gives 2080ti performance for £500 that makes sense for me to get that. If the RTX 3070 costs £750 then the consoles win and I buy an XSX.

Even after upgrading all of those parts my motherboard will still not have PCIe Gen 4 and I will be missing out on a new controller that comes with the consoles so I will still be at a disadvantage vs the consoles.

I would go so far as to say unless 2080ti performance is available for £400 then droves of mid range PC gamers will migrate to console. The economics of PC gaming will not make sense for those who like bang for buck.

You have got to ask yourself what will be the next 2060? That is the current mainstream GPU of choice that delivers greater than console graphics. It will need to be at least equivalent to the consoles GPU power, so that will be RTX 2080 Super performance. That is a £720 card. So say the RTX 3060 is the same performance as the 2080 Super it will need to be priced at no more than £350 to make sense. Any more than £350 and you are much better off getting a console. PC gaming will be relegated to being for only high end enthusiasts for a good few years.

 

[HRL]

What's a homing briefcase? Can I cut bread with it?

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ovis-1st-ai-powered-suitcase-following-by-side#/

No.

 

[HRL]

Yeah they need mouse and keyboard, you just can't play the likes of Far Cry 5 with a controller.

/s ?

 

[Richdog]

I would go so far as to say unless 2080ti performance is available for £400 then droves of mid range PC gamers will migrate to console. The economics of PC gaming will not make sense for those who like bang for buck.

This has literally been the case for years... the economics of PC gaming have been bad for ages if you look at things from a pure "playing games smoothly for a reasonable intial outlay" aspect. However, PC's are objectively able to do many things consoles cannot... play RTS/strategy games, enabling a vibrant modding scene which is simply phenomenal, and allowing us to buy games using steam keys and/or key sites at massively reduced prices over consoles. In fact, the game price difference can be dramatic when you wait a few months after release and go an a key site. It goes some way to balancing the cost of ownership and just allows you to do so much more with your PC.

The benefit of a console is the convenience and lower starting costs, along with the fact that it has a static set of hardware that will not be obselete for as long as its lifecycle, which is usually a good few years at least (at least for the new gen, unlike the PS4/Xbox that were so weak they needed a Pro version). That is a definite plus point.

You have got to ask yourself what will be the next 2060? That is the current mainstream GPU of choice that delivers greater than console graphics. It will need to be at least equivalent to the consoles GPU power, so that will be RTX 2080 Super performance. That is a £720 card. So say the RTX 3060 is the same performance as the 2080 Super it will need to be priced at no more than £350 to make sense. Any more than £350 and you are much better off getting a console. PC gaming will be relegated to being for only high end enthusiasts for a good few years.

I think you are perhaps being a tad dramatic here. The generational performance jump from a PS4 to a PS5 will likely far outweigh what the performance jump will be from a 2060 to a 3060. PC gamers on the mid-level do not need to buy cards that match next-gen consoles, because most people are not going to be playing at 4k 60fps, which is what the new consoles are aiming for.

Most mid-range gamers are playing at 1080p or 1440p (I think 1440p still marks the sweet spot even for high-end gaming if you want longevity out of your components) and an RTX 2060 SUper can currently run those resolutions on almost all games at Ultra and a decent CPU. When the 3060 hits, I think its reasonable to expect that it will be a 1080p/1440p performance champ with 2070 Super raw performance as well as 4x the RT power of Turing. The 3060 will not realistically power 4k at 60fps.

 

[VincentHanna]

Yeah they need mouse and keyboard, you just can't play the likes of Far Cry 5 with a controller.

Can't tell if serious.

I've completed Far Cry 3, 4, 5 and New Dawn, on a control pad...most of those on PC in fact.

 

[VincentHanna]

I've also played too much Far Cry by the looks of things.

 

[lovelyhead]

This has literally been the case for years... the economics of PC gaming have been bad for ages if you look at things from a pure "playing games smoothly for a reasonable intial outlay" aspect.

I agree but with the advent of the new consoles have made the economics go from bad to terrible assuming there isn't a big shake up of GPU prices.

However, PC's are objectively able to do many things consoles cannot... play RTS/strategy games, enabling a vibrant modding scene which is simply phenomenal, and allowing us to buy games using steam keys and/or key sites at massively reduced prices over consoles. In fact, the game price difference can be dramatic when you wait a few months after release and go an a key site. It goes some way to balancing the cost of ownership and just allows you to do so much more with your PC.

I don't think that is quite so clear cut regarding cost of ownership. It hold's true if you buy all new console releases on day one at full price and never sell the disc on, but if you wait a couple of weeks and buy a disc version of a game and then trade it in after you finish it, it can work out to be cheaper than buying the same game on PC. You do have Xbox Live / PS Plus to pay for but that isn't a huge cost. I would say that if you are sensible, the costs are similar regarding software. RTS and Strategy games are of course best on PC no doubt about it. But those games are no longer mainstream so won't be a major consideration for most people. I think the same holds true for mods.

The benefit of a console is the convenience and lower starting costs, along with the fact that it has a static set of hardware that will not be obselete for as long as its lifecycle, which is usually a good few years at least (at least for the new gen, unlike the PS4/Xbox that were so weak they needed a Pro version). That is a definite plus point.

Agreed

PC gamers on the mid-level do not need to buy cards that match next-gen consoles, because most people are not going to be playing at 4k 60fps, which is what the new consoles are aiming for.

Current PC players with mid level hardware have better performance than the current consoles. I am guessing that is the reason they have gaming PC's rather than consoles. That will cease to be the case come the end of the year and they will potentially have to spend way more than the consoles cost to regain the "my PC is faster than a console" badge. It is going to be a very tough sell for many of those people (myself included) to spend way more than a console in order to be a little bit faster than one

When the 3060 hits, I imagine it will be a 1080p/1440p performance champ with 2070 Super raw performance as well as 4x the RT power of Turing. The 3060 will not realistically power 4k at 60fps.

If you are right about the 3060, it will be slower than the current consoles and I would imagine not much cheaper. You also still haven't upgraded your less powerful CPU, SSD and potentially motherboard and RAM.

 

[Besty]

Can't tell if serious.

I've completed Far Cry 3, 4, 5 and New Dawn, on a control pad...most of those on PC in fact.

It might be heresy to some but Ubisoft action games are generally a better experience on an Xbox elite controller than mouse/kb.

Divsion 2/A.Creed/Far Cry etc. I was skeptical until i stumped up the cash for the Elite.

Competitive RTS then a mouse/kb is the way to go.

 

[EastCoastHandle]

Argues consoles are just as good as PC, posts 720p youtube video as proof... erm, did you actually think that was going to be compelling evidence?

Mind you, you must be fairly masochistic to come on to a PC enthusiasts website trying to big up consoles in the first place, why not just smash bricks in to your own genitals? It would be more productive. Or why not try going on to the BMW owners forum and tell them how great your Mazda is?

LOL, the video isn't 720p which completely invalidates your point of view. As it stands it is proof at 4k.
PC Specs:
Intel Core i7-9700K, 8x 4800 Mhz (OC) 32 GB DDR4 3000 RAM ASUS ROG STRIX GeForce RTX 2080 Ti ASUS ROG STRIX Z390F Mainboard 250 GB Samsung 970 Evo Plus M.2 PCI SSD 4 TB HDD Windows 10 Pro 64bit

The point of my posts on the subject is that we are in a time in which we are getting new consoles at the same time we are getting new video cards. The point of which is to play games, not glorify video cards. So your car analogy is horrible as we don't wash nor detail video cards. Neither do we meet up at the local walmart parking lot and lay our video cards in the parking spaces for all to see.

What we do using them for is playing games with. Some, if not all, of which will be ported from either the playstation or xbox ecosystem. An ecosystem in which we have to pay attention to in order to know how we upgrade.
That entails that we pay attention to price structure. Because that determines what will attract us to buy, not what we are brand loyal to.

Remember, upgrading the PC has and will always be a hobby. The purpose of the hobby is to play the games I enjoy. That hobby can fluctuate between PC or console depending on current market trends. So it would behoove the GPU market to pay attention, for example.

 

[Richdog]

I agree but with the advent of the new consoles have made the economics go from bad to terrible assuming there isn't a big shake up of GPU prices.

I don't think that is quite so clear cut regarding cost of ownership. It hold's true if you buy all new console releases on day one at full price and never sell the disc on, but if you wait a couple of weeks and buy a disc version of a game and then trade it in after you finish it, it can work out to be cheaper than buying the same game on PC. You do have Xbox Live / PS Plus to pay for but that isn't a huge cost. I would say that if you are sensible, the costs are similar regarding software. RTS and Strategy games are of course best on PC no doubt about it. But those games are no longer mainstream so won't be a major consideration for most people. I think the same holds true for mods.

Agreed

Current PC players with mid level hardware have better performance than the current consoles. I am guessing that is the reason they have gaming PC's rather than consoles. That will cease to be the case come the end of the year and they will potentially have to spend way more than the consoles cost to regain the "my PC is faster than a console" badge. It is going to be a very tough sell for many of those people (myself included) to spend way more than a console in order to be a little bit faster than one

If you are right about the 3060, it will be slower than the current consoles and I would imagine not much cheaper. You also still haven't upgraded your less powerful CPU, SSD and potentially motherboard and RAM.

Some good points and I get where you are coming from. I don't doubt that some PC users will migrate to PS5, but I would bet that a lot of PC users will end up having both due to the difference in use cases. I know of very few PC players that want play an FPS or strategy game without a mouse and keyboard and in this regard PC is king with a wealth of content to choose form. You say strategy games aren't mainstream but I would diisagree with this... there is a huge market with lots of big games released in the last few years and lots more coming in 2021. The modding scene for many games is also huge and beautiful and even if you take all of these different niche genres and games and add them all together you get a huge amount of users.

I guess my takeaway point is that consoles are not going to cause the demise of the PC for the forseeable future. They both have their place and they both have enough users to support the respective industries. PC gaming is only getting bigger, esports is becoming an actual sport, and in many respects a PC has no replacement as it is so versatile. I can do everything on one machine and that is hard to compete with... the price being the 3-5 yearly upgrades on average. However, the CPU/mobo need upgrading less frequently than the GPU.

It's not going to be so bad and we are all going to benefit from amazing hardware and amazing games in 2021 no matter wich platform we are on.