NVIDIA Publishes DirectX 12 Tips for Developers

[TheRealDeal]

Thanks and I have actually perused that quite a while back. No DX12 one?

I doubt there will be one. One of the main point's of mantle was to let developers get a hand up on how to code on Gcn at the lower level. It's always said and i have no clue if it's true that dx12 is like mantle so the hundreds of developers that joined the mantle closed beta should in theory already know a good bit about how to go about it better on dx12.

 

[Gregster]

I doubt there will be one. One of the main point's of mantle was to let developers get a hand up on how to code on Gcn at the lower level. It's always said and i have no clue if it's true that dx12 is like mantle so the hundreds of developers that joined the mantle closed beta should in theory already know a good bit about how to go about it better on dx12.

Maybe bud. Not that fussed but would be nice to see what AMD have to say about coding for DX12 (whitepaper or notes).

Meh, no matter how you look at it, Nvidia do very well at what they do and don't sit back. Kudos to them for giving devs tips on coding for both GPU vendors.

 

[Ayahuasca]

I must admit when I first seen the title I thought nVidia may be up to no good again, good to see an AMD guy has given them credit though, thread soon went quiet after that.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Thus me saying that AMD already did their own 'Guide' for devs in a form of DX12/Mantle/Vulkan manuals

You can't have the same developer technology papers for two separate API. Even if a lot of the supported technologies are similar, you can only cross reference so much. AMD simply haven't released one yet. That is literally all there is to it, it has nothing to do with Microsoft's own papers or Mantle.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

People saying that AMD did Mantle, didn't DICE do a lot of Mantle and then AMD took credit for it?
That sounds more like AMD than AMD doing the work surely?

The other thing is, do you remember the Mantle games games?
How long did it take to get BF4 working properly without memory issues and stuff?
How many Mantle games released without Multi-GPU support?

If that's the product of AMD's guides then I say it no bad thing if someone else wants a go at writing one!

 

[Orangey]

Did anyone bring up the fact that MS stole AMD's "intro to Mantle" verbatim yet? I'm hoping I'm not the only one who still remembers, if anyone can find a news link from back then I need it for archiving.

 

[r7slayer]

People saying that AMD did Mantle, didn't DICE do a lot of Mantle and then AMD took credit for it?
That sounds more like AMD than AMD doing the work surely?

The other thing is, do you remember the Mantle games games?
How long did it take to get BF4 working properly without memory issues and stuff?
How many Mantle games released without Multi-GPU support?

If that's the product of AMD's guides then I say it no bad thing if someone else wants a go at writing one!

It's like saying AMD made vulkan. Dice only helped they didn't develop Mantle otherwise Dice would be all arms in air about this situation. AMD only helped develop vulkan just like Dice helped with Mantle which is probably why Battlefield is the biggest mantle game. Also it was BF if i remember correctly that had a lot of issues with mantle. Just the memory leak was mantle sided.

I think we all know that AMD have and still are working closely with Microsoft on DX12 because of the consoles, so when Microsoft released a white paper on DX12 its going to have AMD covered some what. Probably why nVidia have released a white paper to make sure they get their GPUs covered as they are probably abit worried and tried to make it seem like a more general and neutral DX12 development tips guide though obviously its more tailored to their GPUs lol

 

[muziqaz]

Em, during Vulkan presentation, Khronos group actually had several slides thanking AMD, and they did mention that AMD just simply gave away Mantle to Khronos Group and said, here do whatever you want.
Even though MS does not admit openly, but it was similar situation between MS and AMD. AMD offered Mantle to MS to use as a basis and MS took it, since we all seen MS previous attempts to develop API which uses multicore CPUs with DX10, and DX11.

But hey, I won't stop anyone from twisting these things the way they like it

 

[Kaapstad]

Em, during Vulkan presentation, Khronos group actually had several slides thanking AMD, and they did mention that AMD just simply gave away Mantle to Khronos Group and said, here do whatever you want.
Even though MS does not admit openly, but it was similar situation between MS and AMD. AMD offered Mantle to MS to use as a basis and MS took it, since we all seen MS previous attempts to develop API which uses multicore CPUs with DX10, and DX11.

But hey, I won't stop anyone from twisting these things the way they like it

Cards with DX12 features were available from both AMD and NVidia long before Mantle came along. So to suggest that DX12 has had much to do with Mantle would be wrong.

 

[r7slayer]

Cards did not have DX12 features cards only support certain features. Dx 12 was developed with card compatabilty in mind. They wasnt just going to develop dx12 with all features and functions which end up making all current cards redundant and only new cards and unreleased cards are only able to run DX12. That would iradicate most users and give DX12 a very slow adoption rate. Ms wants it to be a quick adoption rate hence they made it compatible with most cards lol. Hence free upgrade to win10, also why dx12 is similar to mantle. This will get dx12 adopted and developed for quicker.

Your lookin at it wrong with cards had these features lol.

 

[Kaapstad]

Cards did not have DX12 features cards only support certain features. Dx 12 was developed with card compatabilty in mind. They wasnt just going to develop dx12 with all features and functions which end up making all current cards redundant and only new cards and unreleased cards are only able to run DX12. That would iradicate most users and give DX12 a very slow adoption rate. Ms wants it to be a quick adoption rate hence they made it compatible with most cards lol. Hence free upgrade to win10, also why dx12 is similar to mantle. This will get dx12 adopted and developed for quicker.

Your lookin at it wrong with cards had these features lol.

Don't think so

Mantle and DX12 perform very differently with very different results.

Check it out for yourself on the Futuremark API overhead feature test.

Mantle and DX12 have very little in common.

 

[muziqaz]

Cards with DX12 features were available from both AMD and NVidia long before Mantle came along. So to suggest that DX12 has had much to do with Mantle would be wrong.

Kaap, there is a features of DX12 and there is basic core of DX12 which is removing overhead.
DX12 features were agreed in close discussion with AMD and nVidia. Low levelness came from Mantle. If MS managed to do it by themselves low level API they would have done it years and years ago with DX10. But they failed miserably, and failed again with DX11.
Mantle was not written in a day, I hope you know that. And I do hope you realise that Mantle was created by a small group of Dice devs and a frikkin nearly bankrupting AMD
You are telling me, that multibillion dollar company like MS was put to place by AMD programmers in regards to time to market??? Please don't kid ourselves, man.
WHY would AMD develop API which is JUST for them and no one else? What is the point of that? What game developer would ever sign off to separate API just to please unpopular AMD? That is why when AMD/Dice was developing Mantle, their intentions were to 'sell' it to Khronos and MS. That way devs will much more easily jump onto the Mantle train.
I do understand that some nvidians think that Mantle was a failure, but that's their right to be wrong.
Bleeding AMD would have never spent any extra resources to develop something of this magnitude just for themselves.
Now you have Mantle VR, which by some people on internets is being used by Oculus. Again not for themselves, but sharing, which makes it more attractive to devs, and when you have specifically designed hardware for that VR API, you hope it will help sell their cards.

 

[muziqaz]

Don't think so

Mantle and DX12 perform very differently with very different results.

Check it out for yourself on the Futuremark API overhead feature test.

Mantle and DX12 have very little in common.

How do you define 'little in common'? Have you seen debug information while those tests are running? I doubt it.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9112/exploring-dx12-3dmark-api-overhead-feature-test/3

Here, all I see nearly identical performance between Mantle and DX12.
Obviously DX12 was being improved while AMD let go of Mantle development and concentrated on Mantle VR, so there is some variation, but nothing which would suggest your implied differences
It is unbelievable when so many of you guys cannot see the writing on the wall in front of you and keep creating those different theories when everything is already clear if you use common sense and logic.

 

[Kaapstad]

How do you define 'little in common'? Have you seen debug information while those tests are running? I doubt it.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9112/exploring-dx12-3dmark-api-overhead-feature-test/3

Here, all I see nearly identical performance between Mantle and DX12.
Obviously DX12 was being improved while AMD let go of Mantle development and concentrated on Mantle VR, so there is some variation, but nothing which would suggest your implied differences
It is unbelievable when so many of you guys cannot see the writing on the wall in front of you and keep creating those different theories when everything is already clear if you use common sense and logic.

So why do DX12 and Mantle get totally different scores in the Futuremark API tests ?

Answer because they are totally different.

 

[muziqaz]

So why do DX12 and Mantle get totally different scores in the Futuremark API tests ?

Answer because they are totally different.

what is totally different, Kaap? I see Mantle outperforming DX12 with 6 cores by just couple %. With less cores the difference is even smaller. How is that TOTALLY different?
DX11 and DX12/Mantle difference is TOTALLY/COMPLETELY/ABSOLUTELY different.
Mantle to DX12 differences are just academic, as Anandtech expressed themselves. Add an improvement here or there and that difference will disappear and later will grow again, since DX12 is still being developed and improved while Mantle non VR is dead.

 

[r7slayer]

They are similar like I said. Not totally different. How can you call them totally different? If they was Amd wouldnt suport half the stuff in DX12 because Gcn and mantle was made in collaboration. They are similar not same and might be why is a difference in scores in benches. Your all about benches kaap lol.

 

[Kaapstad]

what is totally different, Kaap? I see Mantle outperforming DX12 with 6 cores by just couple %. With less cores the difference is even smaller. How is that TOTALLY different?
DX11 and DX12/Mantle difference is TOTALLY/COMPLETELY/ABSOLUTELY different.
Mantle to DX12 differences are just academic, as Anandtech expressed themselves. Add an improvement here or there and that difference will disappear and later will grow again, since DX12 is still being developed and improved while Mantle non VR is dead.

So what has happened here in this link of AMDMatt's

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/8108517

Mantle has totally thrashed DX12

The two API's are totally different.

 

[muziqaz]

So what has happened here in this link of AMDMatt's

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/8108517

Mantle has totally thrashed DX12

The two API's are totally different.

You completely amaze me with your blind stubbornness

You take a single person's run with 4 cards and super clocked CPU as your argument and completely ignore various sites using different cards.
As I said, Mantle is/was 1.5 years on the market for AMD to work their magic in multigpu support. DX12 is out for couple of months and you want equally refined multigpu drivers?
Also from your link I see:
DX12 draw calls per frame-638 976
Mantle draw calls per frame-638 976

Completely different

And you DO realise that Matts 4x fury x are scoring same in DX12 as other sites are scoring with single 290x in DX12? Exactly the same: 18.5mln.
There probably is a bug/limiter on dx12 or something.

 

[Ian Evey]

WAFFLE

So amd were always going to offload mantle, So in your opinion amd lied when selling cards to amd users by showing slide after slide of upcoming mantle games.

It's funny that everything is all of a sudden part of mantle now it's dead in the water.

I'm sorry but its a big fail for amd, I mean imagine if bf4 mantle was as good as they said it was with fps up 30-50% across the board to nvidia's offerings at the time, That would have been an eye opener and a selling point.

As it turned out it was marginally faster at best to nvidia offerings.

So Imo mantle is nothing to do with dx12, maybe it did make Microsoft speed up dx12 but I think Microsoft were struggling vs the ps4 so knew they needed a low level api with better features to try to sell more xboxes.

 

[muziqaz]

waffle

BF4 in dx11 on my 290x was running at ~80fps@1080p everything ultra (cpu 3930k@4ghz). When mantle patch came out fps jumped to 120 at same settings. Anand tests show that 980gtx was getting 90fps. So I got 30fps over 980gtx. how is that in your waffle world not a substantial improvement???
And my system was considered top of the range where AMD was telling everyone that it would get least of the boost. How is 40fps extra - a small increase?