Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

[LtMatt]

TL : DR

Gameworks blocks AMD from providing any optimization for any games using the libraries.

Just another reason for me to avoid TWIMTBP titles.

because AMD can’t examine or optimize the shader code, there’s no way of knowing what performance could look like. In a situation where neither the developer nor AMD ever has access to the shader code to start with, this is a valid point. Arkham Origins offers an equal performance hit to the GTX 770 and the R9 290X, but control of AMD’s performance in these features no longer rests with AMD’s driver team — it’s sitting with Nvidia.

There’s a second reason to be dubious of Arkham Origins: it pulls the same tricks with tessellation that Nvidia has been playing since Fermi launched. One of the differences between AMD and Nvidia hardware is that Nvidia has a stronger tessellation engine. In most games, this doesn’t matter, but Nvidia has periodically backed games and benchmarks that include huge amounts of tessellation to no discernible purpose. Arkham Origins is one such title.

Full Article
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...surps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

The Gossip Goats amongst you will remember i picked up on this a while ago and stated the case in the Batman Origin benchmark thread. It was picked up by a hardware site in france the AMD tried to provide performance optimizations for Batman Origins but were blocked from doing so by WB.

One for the Gossip Goats amongst us...





Via google translate from the reviewer at Hardware.fr it seems!

Nvidia up to their dirty tricks again...AMD not allowed to provide any optimizations for Batman AO.

Spoiler

EDIT


The chap who quotes it is the Hardware.fr senior editor:

http://beyond3d.com/member.php?u=1799

They are the main hardware review website in France.

 

[LtMatt]

Back to the trenches we go

This is a bit of a non story and reading that article properly, nVidia has CUDA locked down to nVidia GPU's and nVidia send out their devs to work alongside the games devs. The libraries that Nvidia are using are specific for nVidia hardware and hence why AMD don't have access.

AMD are tied into many projects lately (which is great) and seems they are a little short on men for other projects. Don't read more into this than what is being said.

It can be never be right, good or acceptable to block one side from providing performance optimizations for a game. To the best of my knowledge Nvidia have never been blocked from providing performance improvements for a GE focused title. Fixes or tweaks may have had to arrive after the game has launched, but there was never been a block on it. This is an unhealthy practice, if true.

I have no problem with Nvidia using their own tools to optimize things but when it stops AMD users from getting any performance improvements that makes me want to avoid that title like the plague.

AMD have the option of working alongside the devs from the start but choose to send out code for AMD GPU's instead and expect the devs at WB to impliment it. There is no mention of AMD working with WB.... I remember BF3 and so many people claiming that Nvidia had not allowed AMD near it and yet, they had the same option as Nvidia to work with the devs from the off but chose not to.

Spoiler

Hardware website in France first reported on this a while back
http://beyond3d.com/member.php?u=1799

 

[LtMatt]

Why didn't AMD send out their devs from the start? You can read that response in the spoiler in many ways and what was picked up in the ExtremeTech article was sending out the code and not actually sending out devs to optimize the game for AMD GPU's. I know Nvidia (nVidia just doesn't look right) are toys out the pram guys but it wouldn't be in WB's interests to lock out half the market. I feel there will be more to it and AMD sending out the code instead of sitting with the devs is probably why AMD have lacked optimizations in B:AO.

You have to remember that AMD are extremely busy with Mantle at the moment and this could be why some games are not getting their full attention. Both AMD and Nvvidia have limited resources (Nvidia have over 300 devs) and something has to give. I would like to hear from Warner Bros on this in honesty before making judgement.

Fair shout and ill tweet someone from AMD and ask them to comment on it. I expect as its a TWIMTBP title they were just flat out blocked from providing any performance improvements for it.

 

[LtMatt]

Christmas is over men, back in your trenches until new years eve when we all stop for cheese and crackers for one night.

 

[LtMatt]

Batman Origins runs a load better than City ever did, so Nvidia can do what they want if that's the case

r9 290 here.

You know somethings not right when a 770 is faster than a 290X though.

 

[LtMatt]

 

[LtMatt]

Just incase anyone missed the link at the bottom to page 2, here it is.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...rps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd/2

 

[LtMatt]

No - that's why you care. I shouldn't care just because you say I should care.

I don't care because I don't care. If I was getting naff performance I might be bothered but my FPS is good in everything I play so...

Furry muff but if You don't care, time to leave the thread and let people who do care discuss it.

 

[LtMatt]

Troll thread by AMD fanboy.
Not much point hanging around here.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[LtMatt]

Was just replying to the wall of text assuming I should care and send a letter of protestation (lol) because somebody else is bothered.

The people who do care will be the same people who posted similar opinions in the Mantle thread and have already probably been over the same points. As it's Christmas and all I guess

Thank god Mantle won't stop Nvidia optimizing for Directx11 though. Can you imagine the uproar if the tables were turned and suddenly Mantle being used by a developer meant that Nvidia could not provide any performance improvements or optimizations in their drivers?

 

[LtMatt]

Are you sure it isn't just AMD devs are working on Mantle and just not had time to visit WB? I know they sent the code but if it is all new GameWork libraries, maybe the code AMD sent wouldn't work with the engine.

Obviously all if's ands and buts til we hear something official.

I don't care

Its one game from one developer....thats now 3 months old and largely unsuccessful compared to its predecessors.

Some of the chat in here you'd think nvidia were holding a gun to someone's head.

Its a slippery slope to start going down. Hopefully its just a one off and not something thats going to become common practice. Given Nvidia's previous dirty tricks in this field, i would expect this to start occuring in every TWIMTBP title. Hope im wrong on that assumption though. If Nvidia are the ones responsible for AMD performance optimizations and improvements then some of us are in trouble.





EDIT

Will update the Mantle thread if i hear anything.

 

[LtMatt]

I honestly can't see developers involved with TWIMTBP crippling performance for non Nvidia users, above all things it would be commercial suicide.

Do other gameworks titles have similar performance differences? The sheer amount of developers said to be using gameworks suggests not.

One off imo.

I hope this is the case pgi. I have no problem otherwise. Performance optimizations for TWIMTBP or GE are fine and i have no problem with that. The only thing i do have a problem with is refusing or deliberately blocking a vendors chance to provide performance or optimization improvements. That is just unhealthy and something everyone should condemn as gamers. I'd be doing the same if the shoe was on the other foot as well and will do if i ever see AMD going down that route with Mantle.

Lol, just what this thread needed.

 

[LtMatt]

Is not about exclusive features and its clear you have not read and neither understand.

When a game uses Mantel it does not prevent the option of the DX11 path being optimized by NV whil in this case Nvidia’s GameWorks stops the DX11 path being optimized by AMD.

To be fair i don't think the majority quite understand.

 

[LtMatt]

Nvidia Playing Dirty With GameWorks – Semi-Propriety Nature May Pose Serious Danger to AMD, Dev’s Power Diluted.

GameWorks – Graphical Feats Performed by Hidden Code Optimized by NVIDIA for both Developers and AMD.

However thing about this particular library is that its code is closed. Developers cannot see the code at all, therefore they cannot modify it. Only Nvidia has the power to modify this particular set of code. Now though it will only be a slight inconvenience and a mild insult to developers, it can be a much serious threat for AMD.
Basically AMD will be relying on NVIDIA to Optimize the GameWorks Library for AMD GPUs – Because they cannot edit the code themselves.
You probably see the subtle attack now, with the AMD Driver team unable to optimize their GPUs for games with GameWorks, AMD will be quite literally at Nvidia’s mercy.

Full Article
http://wccftech.com/nvidia-playing-...-pose-serious-danger-amd-dev-s-power-diluted/

 

[LtMatt]

Nvidia Playing Dirty With GameWorks – Semi-Propriety Nature May Pose Serious Danger to AMD, Dev’s Power Diluted.

GameWorks – Graphical Feats Performed by Hidden Code Optimized by NVIDIA for both Developers and AMD.



Full Article
http://wccftech.com/nvidia-playing-...-pose-serious-danger-amd-dev-s-power-diluted/

Indeed.

Read my post above. That's bad news.

 

[LtMatt]

Ok, I've glanced through this thread and I am a total loss at what you're trying to prove.

Performance is pretty much very similar in Arkham Origins if not for PhysX. The last link you've reposted is against a 770 at base settings, for which there is probably a CPU bottleneck at those frame rates.

So the real question is, why are you posting all these articles when it's a non story? Nvidia worked along side WB Studios. In the same way Nvidia lost out when Tomb Raider launched because Crystal Dynamics hadn't given them the latest game build for their drivers.

As Greg tried to point out in the opening post (4 pages ago) you're picking up whatever you can find on the internet (which is obviously 100% truth wherever you look according to some) and making a non story.

Not trying to prove anything. The article is here to be discussed. Just expressing my concern that any game using GameWorks libraries means AMD are unable to provide any performance optimizations. Infact all possible performance optimizations are completely in the hands of a rival vendor. If you cannot see the problem in that then fine, stay out of the thread and let us debate it. I myself think its rather bleak for gamers, particularly those using AMD cards, if they cannot provide optimizations and performance improvements for their own cards on any game using the GameWorks library. I know you don't care as you've got a Nvidia card, thats fine, but let us who do care debate it.

After reading the second article, I am now a little wiser

So basically, Mantle will bring optimizations to AMD hardware that Nvidia can't use and therefore, whilst Nvidia can still run Mantle games perfectly well, they will just miss out on they same level of optimizations that AMD GCN users will benefit from?

I don't think you really understand. Nvidia will have the Mantle source code (as will devs) and be able to code their drivers accordingly if they wish, once the full version of Mantle is released. Nvidia GameWorks are locked, no optimization for Devs or AMD. It all lies with Nvidia.

 

[LtMatt]

Nope, Nvidia have not only locked AMD out, but also the developer, The Developer and AMD have to get Nvidia to optimise a game using GameWorks libraries for AMD.

AMD's API, which is fully accessible to Developers and does not need AMD's input and has no restrictions on what they do with it.

Nvidia response to that is to lock the developer out out of thier libry so the developer can't even optimise for AMD.

I think Nvidia have given AMD and developers their answer to taking up Mantle, emphatically NO!

+1

We all need to hope Mantle is a success if this is the way its going. Otherwise you might need two different graphics cards from each vendor. This is Nvidia saying no to mantle for sure.

 

[LtMatt]

Well if this is certainly true and AMD have no chance to optimize GameWorks games for AMD hardware, maybe it is a good time to buy Nvidia? You get the best of both worlds and I am not even trolling.

Lol sad but true.

Looks like ill never be buying a TWIMTBP title ever again. At least currently you know once the game is released AMD will optimize for it and get performance up to where it should be. With Nvidia in charge for AMD's optimization i think i better stick to Gaming Evolved/Mantle titles and other games that aren't sponsored by either side.

 

[LtMatt]

It will only affect AMD in games using Nvidia's GameWorks libraries.

I think the chances are 99% or Developers will take one look at it and tell Nvidia what they can go do with it.

Depends how much ££ they give Devs. They aren't short of a bob or two.

I thought Nvidia's answer to mantle, was the arm processors that Maxwell cards will be employing - or did I read something incorrectly?

It's one thing for people to say that Nvidia fans are turning a blind eye, but I think the anti-nvidia crowd are spinning things that may not ever be a problem.

Nobody has shown me benchmarks where AMD cards appear severely crippled.

Seriously, how many Nvidia fans are crying that they won't get mantle?

Might this become an issue? Possibly... but as it stands currently, it just looks like a non-issue to me.

You got to remember that dev's/publishers aren't going to be willingly alienating a huge market of potential customers. I think if it turned out there was severe crippling going on, it would come out as it always does in this day and age.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

I hope you're right, but theres still a debate to be had here.

 

[LtMatt]

You wouldn't own a TWIMTBP title anyway hunny

I do think this is being massively blown out of proportion still. AMD get very good fps in this Batman AO and unless Nvidia purposefully make GameWorks titles unplayable on AMD hardware, I see this as much ado about nothing. It is also evident that anyone with some knowledge on programming libraries/code could rip apart the GameWorks libraries to see what makes it tick.

I've probably got as many as you, i just don't shout about it from the rooftops. I have a couple of TWIMTBP 'shockers'.

The fps is not the problem here, thats the point people keep missing. The problem is AMD unable to provide optimizations/performance/driver tweaks for their own graphics cards because of GameWorks. Having to rely on Nvidia for these things is not ideal. If people cannot see that then well they must be a couple of cans short of a six pack.

This is going to be the case now for EVERY GameWorks/TWIMTBP title.