Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

[eyetrip]

End of day, it really is no different than TressFX.

You know how worried I would be if I had bought AMD cards rather than NVidia (because I am not brand loyal)? Not at all!

If GW messes up performance on AMD hardware, dev's will NEVER use it for more than occasional eye candy, as happens currently with Physx! As happened with TressFX.

Now both are getting updated to run better on other vendors (with Flex for Physx), and so either may see better adoption.

All the Nvidia bashers seem to keep ignoring the fact that to cripple AMD performance, would not be in Nvidia's best interest, due all consoles running AMD hardware.

If a dev company implemented Flameworks, and it ran poorly on AMD, you can gaurantee they will implement something for flames and the like which ran well on ALL hardware.

Why are you so desperate to create some conspiracy where likely none exists at all?

These libraries do not replace DX. So AMD will always be able to make optimisations for games.

Games already employ a lot of third party libraries that the likes of AMD and Nvidia won't have direct access to, such as speedtree, etc. That doesn't stop the companies from making optimisations on games.

Libraries such as this are implemented to make development easier. If they don't, they won't see much use. This is why Physx as it currently stands is little more than a token gesture.

 

[LtMatt]

Take the Splinter Cell Blacklist performance for example with the 7970GHz being slower than the GTX760, most wouldn't want to take about it; imagine of it was on BF4, or other EA titles that the GTX780 was slower than the 7950...people would be bashing AMD to the ground for nerfing Nvidia's performance.

I can explain this one. Splinter Cell is not actually a 'full' GameWorks title. However it does use GameWorks HBAO, something that AMD cannot optimise for. Something that AMD can do nothing about at driver level or with dev support. I don't know for sure, but id be willing to bet you disable HBAO things would even up a bit in that game, or maybe AMD would even take the lead. It is a TWIMTBP title though, so that might be a little optimistic.

 

[andybird123]

People are STILL comparing GameWorks to Mantle purely because of performances? How about actually comparing the approach of the features instead?

In race-car terms it would be like:
Mantle- AMD fine-tuning their engine to increase the efficiency and squeeze more performance out of it, hoping to increase the performance gaps between them and its rival

GameWorks- Locking the bonnet of their rival's vehicle (which only them has the key for opening it) and deny them from accessing the cores parts and components

It's fine because Nvidia is the one doing it, so people want to turn an blindeye to it; if it was the other way round, people will curse AMD to infinity and beyond

it IS the same thing, mantle locks nvidia out, it is a benefit for AMD users the same as physx or whatever is a benefit for nvidia users, nvidia are currently locked out of mantle, until that changes they are the exact same thing

I have no problem with AMD users getting the benefit of mantle, the same as I have no problem with nvidia users getting the benefit of gsync, physx, txaa or whatever else nvidia come up with, if a game comes out with mantle that I can't play on my nvidia hardware that I really want, then I'll buy AMD hardware to play it, the same as I have in the past bought new nvidia cards to play nvidia supported titles

 

[Ian Evey]

Take the Splinter Cell Blacklist performance for example with the 7970GHz being slower than the GTX760, most wouldn't want to take about it; imagine of it was on BF4, or other EA titles that the GTX780 was slower than the 7950...people would be bashing AMD to the ground for nerfing Nvidia's performance.

It is going to happen in BF4, but i am happy with the performance of my card and using lower settings, Why cant amd users accept it and do the same with some games.

 

[LtMatt]

it IS the same thing, mantle locks nvidia out, it is a benefit for AMD users the same as physx or whatever is a benefit for nvidia users, nvidia are currently locked out of mantle, until that changes they are the exact same thing

I have no problem with AMD users getting the benefit of mantle, the same as I have no problem with nvidia users getting the benefit of gsync, physx, txaa or whatever else nvidia come up with, if a game comes out with mantle that I can't play on my nvidia hardware that I really want, then I'll buy AMD hardware to play it, the same as I have in the past bought new nvidia cards to play nvidia supported titles

The big difference is Mantle will not harm Nvidia performance, on ANY API. It will not prevent Nvidia from optimising for specific features at DEV or DRIVER level. Mantle will be completely independent from DX11. Once Mantle is finalised, it will be released and Nvidia will be able to support it, if they wish. They won't though because they're only interested in proprietary tech and vendor lock in. They will even lock out their own users from Physx if they detect an AMD card in the pc. Does not matter if you own a Nvidia gpu, because you have a AMD gpu present you must be locked out. That's how they do things and Mantle will not make them change this approach, imo.

 

[Ian Evey]

The big difference is Mantle will not harm Nvidia performance, on ANY API. It will not prevent Nvidia from optimising for specific features at DEV or DRIVER level. Mantle will be completely independent from DX11. Once Mantle is finalised, it will be released and Nvidia will be able to support it, if they wish. They won't though because they're only interested in proprietary tech and vendor lock in. They will even lock out their own uses from Physx if they detect an AMD card in the pc. Does not matter if you own a Nvidia gpu.

They wont use it because it is designed to be used by amd GCN, unless nvidia redesign their new cards to use it, which wont happen.

 

[Baboonanza]

A lot of this (FXAA benchmarks aside) seems to come from a couple of similar sentences in the article:

Since developers can’t see into the libraries, AMD can’t see into them either — and that makes it nearly impossible to optimize driver code.

But this is a completely inaccurate. AMD may not be able to see the source code in the libaraies but they get to see the shader code and the API calls everytime the game runs because they have to be passed through their driver to the graphics card.

Not having access to the library source makes it more difficult to optimise but it certainly doesn't lock them out completely. It's no different from optimsing for other games where they don't have access to the source code, which is the vast majority. They could even fix the tesselation issues in the driver but then I suspect they'd get accused of rigging the benchmark.

The only way AMD might be locked out is if the libraries are deliberately designed to use less efficient rendering techniques on AMD cards but apart for the FXAA stuff I haven't seen anyone make that accusation, and it would be pretty easy to detect.

 

[LtMatt]

They wont use it because it is designed to be used by amd GCN, unless nvidia redesign their new cards to use it, which wont happen.

Johann Andersson, the dice dev who has close ties to AMD and Nvidia says Mantle can work fine with other vendors, ie Nvidia. Considering he helped AMD create Mantle, id say his opinion holds considerable weight.

 

[Ian Evey]

Johann Andersson, the dice dev who has close ties to AMD and Nvidia says Mantle can work fine with other vendors, ie Nvidia. Considering he helped AMD create Mantle, id say his opinion holds considerable weight.

I have no doubt it will work, But will a 7950 beat a 780ti using mantle? That is the question, which is the same as your pointing out with batman.

 

[LtMatt]

I have no doubt it will work, But will a 7950 beat a 780ti using mantle? That is the question, which is the same as your pointing out with batman.

I doubt it, but i can't answer for sure as i don't have a crystal ball. Regardless a Nvidia gpu will still see big gains opposed to the performance it would get on DX11. It will be up to Nvidia to optimise their drivers to perform well on Mantle. It might be hard to equal AMD performance, but who knows for sure. The important thing is they will be able to do it and AMD will not block them from doing so. Vendor lock in benefits no one. We need Mantle to be a success to benefit the gaming industry and move it forward. Taking a GameWorks approach and blocking Nvidia would be beneficial to no one apart from fan boys that think it would be nice to get one over on Nvidia.

 

[Marine-RX179]

It is going to happen in BF4, but i am happy with the performance of my card and using lower settings, Why cant amd users accept it and do the same with some games.

It's not about the performance...it's about how the increase in performance gaps is acquired!

I see you conveniently removed the point I made regarding this in your quote

People are STILL comparing GameWorks to Mantle purely because of performances? How about actually comparing the approach of the features instead?

In race-car terms it would be like:
Mantle- AMD fine-tuning their engine to increase the efficiency and squeeze more performance out of it, hoping to increase the performance gaps between them and its rival

GameWorks- Nvidia locking the bonnet of their rival's vehicle (which only them has the key for opening it) and deny them from accessing the cores parts and components

 

[andybird123]

I doubt it, but i can't answer for sure as i don't have a crystal ball. Regardless a Nvidia gpu will still see big gains opposed to the performance it would get on DX11. It will be up to Nvidia to optimise their drivers to perform well on Mantle. It might be hard to equal AMD performance, but who knows for sure. The important thing is they will be able to do it and AMD will not block them from doing so. Vendor lock in benefits no one. We need Mantle to be a success to benefit the gaming industry and move it forward. Taking a GameWorks approach and blocking Nvidia would be beneficial to no one apart from fan boys that think it would be nice to get one over on Nvidia.

When?
because as of today and for the foreseeable future mantle is locked to AMD hardware... WHEN (IF) they release it for NVidia cards then the argument has weight, but as of today everything you are claiming about gameworks is equally if not more so true of mantle

do you really think that AMD are going to give NVidia the entire source code for Mantle? Or will AMD be the gatekeepers of adding Nvidia support to mantle? because that is what you are asking NVidia to do with gameworks, give AMD complete access to the source code

 

[eyetrip]

IF Mantle ran on Nvidia (and seriously, we don't even know what it's going to do for AMD performance yet), does anyone actually believe it will ever run as well/better on Nvidia than it will on AMD? I certainly don't.

Once Mantle is finalised, it will be released and Nvidia will be able to support it, if they wish. They won't though because they're only interested in proprietary tech and vendor lock in.

Where is the gaurantee of that? It's like saying physx will run on CPU. It does. But not as well.

Mantle will almost certainly be to Nvidia users, what any Nvidia optimised feature is to AMD users.

But such is life. If it were THAT important to me, I'd own AMD.

They will even lock out their own users from Physx if they detect an AMD card in the pc. Does not matter if you own a Nvidia gpu, because you have a AMD gpu present you must be locked out. That's how they do things and Mantle will not make them change this approach, imo.

Oh, I can't argue with this. It's something I still don't understand about them. And as I have said, I often don't like Nvidias practices.

But having said that, I still don't believe Gameworks will be any kind of threat to gaming on AMD hardware in the future.

For the same reason Physx, as I mentioned above, is nothing more than token eye candy.

If these Gameworks libraries don't work well on AMD, there will be alternatives, and what they add will continue to be token additions.

 

[LtMatt]

When?
because as of today and for the foreseeable future mantle is locked to AMD hardware... WHEN (IF) they release it for NVidia cards then the argument has weight, but as of today everything you are claiming about gameworks is equally if not more so true of mantle

do you really think that AMD are going to give NVidia the entire source code for Mantle? Or will AMD be the gatekeepers of adding Nvidia support to mantle? because that is what you are asking NVidia to do with gameworks, give AMD complete access to the source code

Of course they will give them the code. For the API to succeed its going to have to be available to everyone. It will then be up to Nvidia to support it. For Mantle to be a success it needs to reach as wide an audience as possible and AMD know that and have said as much. Johann Andersson also stated the same thing, several times during his presentation. Nvidia hold an important part of the market share in the pc space so locking them out would make no sense.

One last big advantage that Mantle has over Glide is that it’s open. Any graphics silicon manufacturer can add Mantle support to their chips, and that doesn’t just mean nVidia! It means that Intel, ARM, Qualcomm, Samsung, Texas Instruments, and everyone else all have the equal opportunity to add Mantle support to their GPUs (likely in addition to Direct3D 11 and OpenGL 4.0).

Full Article
http://wccftech.com/mantle-destined-follow-glide-grave/
http://wccftech.com/amd-mantle-demo-game-gpubound-cpu-cut-2ghz/

 

[eddyr]

I can't believe this thread is till going. Both sides need to take a break, accept the facts and not resort to reactionary replies with bad analogies and comparisons. It doesn't help a discussion.

Not having access to the library source makes it more difficult to optimise but it certainly doesn't lock them out completely. It's no different from optimsing for other games where they don't have access to the source code, which is the vast majority. They could even fix the tessellation issues in the driver but then I suspect they'd get accused of rigging the benchmark.

The main thrust of the is that with other 3rd party libraries, you could consider both vendors at a equal disadvantage to optimising performance. Whereas with Gameworks any feature (big or small) will naturally be fine tuned for one vendor(creator) while the other faces the same disadvantage. The creator is unlikely to help and the game developer cannot. One vendor can showcase performance to the full, while the other is hindered slightly.

 

[eyetrip]

I can't believe this thread is till going. Both sides need to take a break, accept the facts and not resort to reactionary replies with bad analogies and comparisons. It doesn't help a discussion.

I took most of yesterday off from this "discussion"

 

[andybird123]

do Microsoft hand out the source code for DX?
No they don't... it is not a requirement for any software developer to give out the source code, they only need to know the correct interfaces

the quote you've added also states that it would in theory be possible for Nvidia (or whoever) to ADD support to their SILICON, meaning that NVidia would need to change their hardware to add support for mantle to their graphics cards, not the other way round

that quote suggests that kepler or Maxwell does not currently have the ability to support mantle, it would need to be added at the hardware level by NVidia, intel et al and nothing suggests that that is likely to happen

 

[Baboonanza]

do you really think that AMD are going to give NVidia the entire source code for Mantle? Or will AMD be the gatekeepers of adding Nvidia support to mantle? because that is what you are asking NVidia to do with gameworks, give AMD complete access to the source code

Nvidia desn't even the source code the Mantle, just the full API spec. As long as their aren't licensing issues then all they have to do is provide a DLL that implements the same API and it'll work - basically the same as any other driver.

The thorny issue for Nvidia is that instead of the API being controlled by a neutral third party (Microsoft) they would be attempting to mimic an an API controlled by their direct rival. They would basically be put into a position where AMD could change the API or even sublty change how an API function works in their driver and Nvidia might no know until a game ships with the new version, at which point they have the play catch-up to get it working.

 

[andybird123]

Nvidia desn't even the source code the Mantle, just the full API spec. As long as their aren't licensing issues then all they have to do is provide a DLL that implements the same API and it'll work - basically the same as any other driver.

The thorny issue for Nvidia is that instead of the API being controlled by a neutral third party (Microsoft) they would be attempting to mimic an an API controlled by their direct rival. They would basically be put into a position where AMD could change the API or even sublty change how an API function works in their driver and Nvidia might no know until a game ships with the new version, at which point they have the play catch-up to get it working.

I know, the thrust of matt's argument is that he believes that AMD should have access to the full source code for all of Nvidia's gameworks features so that they can optimise for it, not realising that no one gives out source code for anything yet they can still optimise for it, it's a complete non-point

 

[LtMatt]

IF Mantle ran on Nvidia (and seriously, we don't even know what it's going to do for AMD performance yet), does anyone actually believe it will ever run as well/better on Nvidia than it will on AMD? I certainly don't.

Where is the gaurantee of that? It's like saying physx will run on CPU. It does. But not as well.

Mantle will almost certainly be to Nvidia users, what any Nvidia optimised feature is to AMD users.

But such is life. If it were THAT important to me, I'd own AMD.

It may not perform as well as AMD cards, but it should still be a big improvement from DX11. As AMD have designed Mantle i think thats only natural. I rarely expect AMD cards to perform better on TWIMTBP titles. However once the game is released AMD can at least optimise performance to run well. With GameWorks that ability to optimise is limited, which the article reported on. It makes no sense to block AMD from optimising.

Regarding the guarantee? Well AMD and Johann have both said it. I did have an in depth interview with AMD where by they said it will become open and will be available to be supported by Nvidia but i can't find it off hand. I posted it in the Mantle thread will post it if i can find it.