Soldato
What I'd like to know is how Bush and friends, all claiming to be good christians, square away allowing people to be tortured? Even with my very limited knowledge of christianity I can't see how that would make their god too happy.
Obama releases Bush torture memos
- Thread starter Sankari
- Start date
Man of Honour
They do it very easily, as history has shown time and again. Christianity as a religion has as much right to claim innocence in past involvement with torture as OBL does with terrorism - i.e. none whatsoever.
Soldato
- Joined
- 22 Feb 2008
- Posts
- 11,108
Hell, maybe given time it would have come full circle.....Terrorists float.
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Soldato
I have written and rewritten this reply but I cannot make a decision, it takes a strong person to make these kinds of decisions and whilst I and the rest of us sit on the fence George Bush and the rest made the decision to do something, even if it was wrong morally they had to make the choice between the better of two evils. It is illegal but so are a lot of things.
Just as people say your parents aren't always right, neither is the law. As I said before I tried to decide where I stood by applying various situations which affected me, my loved ones, people I don't know and those who 'deserve' it, I know what my prinicpals are, I think it is wrong but at the same time I don't think I could stick to my principals in that situation as the loss of one life, whether loved or otherwise is worse than the tourcher of another, which then reciprocates around to the innocent factor, and so on....
My feeling is that I would not want to go through this sort of treatment even if justified in the name of saving others. To my mind, there is no justification for cruelty to any living thing, I would like to think that I will never cause deliberate harm or suffering to others.
The justification that saving the lives of others by causing any kind of suffering is wrong, by lowering our selves to the level of these people we are no better than them, even if it were to save lives, it is about sticking to your principals.
In the end we are all human, in our current state we will never be perfect, and people will do things that are wrong for the right and wrong reasons and we should just accept it but restrict it so that it is only used in the most sever cases, and not made 'normal' so as to justify more widespread wrong doing.
I don't know if anyone cares but thats my 2,000,000,000p
EDIT: Summery - I think its wrong and would never condone or accept it but it may be necessary people who can make the hard choices for the benefit of the whole.
Just as people say your parents aren't always right, neither is the law. As I said before I tried to decide where I stood by applying various situations which affected me, my loved ones, people I don't know and those who 'deserve' it, I know what my prinicpals are, I think it is wrong but at the same time I don't think I could stick to my principals in that situation as the loss of one life, whether loved or otherwise is worse than the tourcher of another, which then reciprocates around to the innocent factor, and so on....
My feeling is that I would not want to go through this sort of treatment even if justified in the name of saving others. To my mind, there is no justification for cruelty to any living thing, I would like to think that I will never cause deliberate harm or suffering to others.
The justification that saving the lives of others by causing any kind of suffering is wrong, by lowering our selves to the level of these people we are no better than them, even if it were to save lives, it is about sticking to your principals.
In the end we are all human, in our current state we will never be perfect, and people will do things that are wrong for the right and wrong reasons and we should just accept it but restrict it so that it is only used in the most sever cases, and not made 'normal' so as to justify more widespread wrong doing.
I don't know if anyone cares but thats my 2,000,000,000p
EDIT: Summery - I think its wrong and would never condone or accept it but it may be necessary people who can make the hard choices for the benefit of the whole.
Soldato
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1579920046?bctid=20047560001
Another example of Waterboarding. Chap goes into small detail about why it causes you to 'flip out'
Made me feel abit uneasy watching it
Another example of Waterboarding. Chap goes into small detail about why it causes you to 'flip out'
Made me feel abit uneasy watching it
ever been properly waterboarded? get a friend to place cling film over your face while water is poured over it.
see how long you can stand feeling like your drowning
Dont foget the head below feet and arms/chest/legs restrained.
I think a lot of people are touching on what it is all about (including platinum87). To me none of the things listed in the OP seem particularly bad (for me), and short doses of any of them I believe I could cope with, BUT when they are all added together and done over days, weeks or months with other things put in (like stress positions [probably more likely to work on me], shouting and solitary confinement) you will crack, and that is the whole point. Some of those things I bet myself and almost everyone on here could beat (it even states that in the OP with the insect example) but I dubt any could beat them all.
Taking waterboarding as an example, I don't think I would have too many problems with it, but someone who is afraid of water will give up in seconds. Having said that we know they are not actually going to drown you, people it is use on don't. Also in response to those videos, they are done on people that don't have anything to hold back so of course they will give up (IMO) quicker than someone who really wants to hide something (much like dangling from a bar, if the drop is 50ft instead of 1ft you WILL hold on for longer, probably MUCH longer).
Also those times for people giving up, I am very sceptical about them, when you were younger to put someone down you always made the time shorter, or the number lower, and I can see the Americans doing the same, for two reasons, 1. to embarress the 'enemy' and 2. to make it seem just that bit nicer, less people are going to complain if they only have to go through it for 20 seconds than 5 minutes.
Some people have a greater tolerence for pain than others, some don't like the dark, being on their own, insects, "white" noise. A boxer is unlikely to give up by being slapped, but may give up ith noise or insects, whereas someone adverse to pain may be fine with white noise but give up instantly at the idea of physical pain.
So all in all I dn't particularly see these things as reasons for prison sentences in themselves and would not class them in the same league as teeth pulling, finger cutting etc, and can see there place, BUT there is a law the US signed up to so I think at least someone should be tried, that person being the person(s) who authorised it, not the people who carried it out in this instance.
Taking waterboarding as an example, I don't think I would have too many problems with it, but someone who is afraid of water will give up in seconds. Having said that we know they are not actually going to drown you, people it is use on don't. Also in response to those videos, they are done on people that don't have anything to hold back so of course they will give up (IMO) quicker than someone who really wants to hide something (much like dangling from a bar, if the drop is 50ft instead of 1ft you WILL hold on for longer, probably MUCH longer).
Also those times for people giving up, I am very sceptical about them, when you were younger to put someone down you always made the time shorter, or the number lower, and I can see the Americans doing the same, for two reasons, 1. to embarress the 'enemy' and 2. to make it seem just that bit nicer, less people are going to complain if they only have to go through it for 20 seconds than 5 minutes.
Some people have a greater tolerence for pain than others, some don't like the dark, being on their own, insects, "white" noise. A boxer is unlikely to give up by being slapped, but may give up ith noise or insects, whereas someone adverse to pain may be fine with white noise but give up instantly at the idea of physical pain.
So all in all I dn't particularly see these things as reasons for prison sentences in themselves and would not class them in the same league as teeth pulling, finger cutting etc, and can see there place, BUT there is a law the US signed up to so I think at least someone should be tried, that person being the person(s) who authorised it, not the people who carried it out in this instance.
Associate
Why do people keep say that it takes a "strong" person to make the decision to torture somebody?
No it doesn't. That's like saying you need to be brave to be a mass murderer. No...you just need to be an inhumane sociopath with dubious morals.
Aye, I'm sure Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld lost countless hours of sleep fretting over the poor souls they where exposing to such barbaric treatment...NOT!
No it doesn't. That's like saying you need to be brave to be a mass murderer. No...you just need to be an inhumane sociopath with dubious morals.
Aye, I'm sure Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld lost countless hours of sleep fretting over the poor souls they where exposing to such barbaric treatment...NOT!
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The waterboard is a really bad one. I remember seeing it being tested on random indaviduals and very few off them lasted morethan a couple of minutes.
I've also tried it (willingly of course) in a school experiment, and it is unbelievable. Just because it's a few drops of water on the forehead it seems like nothing. But when it's happening it starts to be irritating very quickly, and then you really do panic...and this was in a completly controlled enviroment.
I've also tried it (willingly of course) in a school experiment, and it is unbelievable. Just because it's a few drops of water on the forehead it seems like nothing. But when it's happening it starts to be irritating very quickly, and then you really do panic...and this was in a completly controlled enviroment.
The same reason people who commit or try to commit suicide are supposedly cowards. It's to reassure the people who say it.
i really doubt that. The FBI agents and others tested weren't exactly scared of water. It's used because it incredibly effective on everybody.
Um, that's not waterboarding. Waterboarding they poor the water on to a towel directly over your mouth - not your forehead. You feel like you're drowning because you're sucking water through the towel and thus really are drowning - just in a controlled way. If you try holding your breath you make it worse for yourself because the towel pulls itself closer round your nose and mouth (because it's wet and being pulled at both ends); the next time you try to breath you thus struggle to as it effectively starts suffocating you.
Permabanned
Associate
I absolutely detest it when people talk with real authority on subjects they know absolutely nothing about.
Of course it's psychological. Repeatedly being made to feel like your about to drown - that is, about to die, and having absolutely no control over it, would leave you with serious psychological problems.
At least with physical torture, your brain becomes numb to the pain, or better still, you faint. With waterboarding, there is no fainting, you can't block out the feeling of facing your death, dozens of times per day. Your body purposefully keeps you alert and awake, and pushes you to try and escape, when there is no possibility of doing so. All the while you're choking back water and trying desperately to breathe. Rinse and repeat (if you'll pardon the pun) for months on end. Yes, I couldn't see that having any effect on my long-term mental well-being, not at all.
As for the video with the kids doing it in a basement, that is nowhere near a true simulation of what really happens - the Vanity Fair video is:
1. The water is poured onto a thin cloth, and the majority of water bounces straight off the cloth. In the real thing, a thick cloth is used, so the water collects and makes it increasingly harder to breath and has the effect of smothering even when you can manage to take a breath.
2. You can not underestimate the effect of having the freedom to move. If you are blindfolded and restrained, with water gradually preventing your breathing, that is something different entirely.
History has proved that torture should have no place in modern society. Yet still the chattering masses who have no clue or understanding of the use of torture and its history think they're entitled to hold a worthy opinion on it.
Perhaps the most fundamental argument when it comes to torture: would you agree to its use if it could mean that you, or any family member, could undergo torture for a crime you are suspected of committing that you may never have committed?
Would you want your dad to be subjected to waterboarding, countless times a day, with no prospect of 'giving in'? All the while he has no useful information to retell.
Honestly, the lack of logic and basic understanding some people display is astounding.
There was a interesting segment on the radio the other day about waterboarding: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p002rrkg/Newshour_21_04_2009/ for anyone who cares to listen.
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Soldato
With the greatest respect, despite an otherwise sound post, we have no way to actually measure the effectiveness of torture, we only hear about the opposite. It is not as though the we get Ingsoc's "Oceania Times"...
"Another commie crumbles under torture - attack thwarted".
Use your noggin.
I suggest that they were not actually subjected to the proper technique. The average "breaking" time is 14 seconds. It is inconceivable that anyone would resist for a full two minutes unless they possess a supernatural ability to breath underwater.
With respect, that was not waterboarding.
Waterboarding does not merely consist of "a few drops of water on the forehead". It involves a continual stream of water poured onto a cloth that is spread over your nose and mouth, thereby restricting your oxygen flow whilst allowing water into your respiratory tract. In other words: drowning.