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Still not answering all the questions.....also was the physio a sports physio with experience in dealing with athletes?? How many physio visits did you have?

What's stopping you making 1 video with commentary as you squat about what pain your getting and where?

People are trying to help you and you seem like you want to change, but you keep on avoiding the simple questions and are very adverse to taking some simple steps that could lead to solutions/fixes to your problems.

As many, more knowledgeable then you or I have said, your problems are quite likely fixable. If someone told me this the first thing i would be doing would be seeking there advise and i cant for the life of me understand why you wont :(
 
The deeper I go in the squat the more it hurts. I have either thin cartalidge or nonw at all at a certian point, and during the rom of the squat the patella (knee cap) comes in contact with the femur and causes pain.

The leg press, doesnt seem to cause this problem, becuase the forces are different. The joint is technically not bearing any weight, it is just pushing.

This caused me physical pain. :(

There is a bucketload of research showing that squats to parallel involve a massive amount of not much stress across the knee and are RECOMMENDED for people recovering from knee damage of some description (granted, not at 1RM, but...).

Only when going below parallel do the stresses increase, and these are compressive (for squats). For leg presses, patellar stresses go through the roof, whereas these are lower for squats. ACL/PCL forces are greater for leg presses, too.

So the compressive forces on your knee will be higher if you go for a deep squat, but up to parallel and probably even slightly below, squats in the right shape WILL BE BETTER FOR YOUR KNEE THAN LEG PRESSES.
 
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Ok to answer questions above.

Before I started making progress on the leg press which started in January, my legs wrent very strong at all, and I couldnt see my self managing to lift more than 100kg on the leg press. (Which now is pretty measley)

I this point I had tried squats whist holding dumbelss, and well I hurt myself (knee) and swore never to make that mistake again.

However, I have spent the last 3 months doing leg press and sldl's and have noticed that I do have better stability and form when doing this movement. (Which is why I think one day I might even be able to dl at some point)

However is taking me to having some leg strength, to even work 'think' I might be able to squat, which ironically is meant to develop leg strength.

My only reservation squats wise, is Im thinking to the future. On the leg press, the sky is the limit as it doesnt hurt the knee. Squats.... well I may be able to go light/medium, but as soon as I migrate to man squats, my knee issues will become a limiting factor and I wont be able to progress.

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Some one asked above about my physio etc.... well the physio is an NHS physio at an orthoeadic hospital in London.

The full story to how I injured the leg and my physio history is:

I actually ruptured my ACL in my left leg in 2000 playing football in the park. Back then I didnt know how serious it was and just left the swelling to go down. Few months later I tried to play football again, and litterally fell over with my first touch of the ball.

Went to see GP who refered me to a surgeon. I had my surgery and was told I had a ACL reconstruction, using a hamstring tendon and a menisectomy done.

But the bad news, is that the surgeon that did the graft has put the graft in a 'non optimal' position ie, it is 1cm out of it's proper alignment. I have been advised to not do anything about it, as to have another op to correct it, is very complex and not advisable.

So that was my bad leg, hwoever now my right causes me more issues.

Fast forward to about 4 years ago, I was in the gym doing hamstring curls as physio told me hams stabilise the knee, and I was using a weight too heavy for my self and suddenly felt sharp pain in my right leg. I thought thats not good and stopped.

No pain or issues at first, however over the coming weeks it started to ache, untill one day I extended my right leg and experienced a massive CRACK!

Since then, the knee aches like a (female dog) and cracks a lot! I was having issues walking down stairs as it would hurt etc...

I went back to GP and said, please can you send me to the best NHS orthopeadic hospital in london, as this time I dont have the luxury of messing about.

They sent me to the Royal National Orphopeadic hospital in london. The surgeon at first thought it ws cartilidge damage but the mri scans showed a little bit of degenerative damage but nothing too conclusive.

I ws given a choice, athroscopy or physio. I thought I'd try physio.

Physio, recommended single leg press, wall squats and glute excersies mostly.

Did help at all, and I went back eventually and had the atheroscopy, just for peace of mind to find out whatthe problem was.

They told me, that I had thined my cartildge behind knee cap and that I had a flap of carilidge removed. To be honest, knee actually feels worse now that pre surgery. But that just might be the condition getting worse with time rather than the surgery.

Having spoken to my surgeon post op, he told me there is nothing surgically that can be done further other than a partial knee replacemnt. Ie, they will shave what little cartiledge I have left and replce it with a peice of plastic.

I have since gone back to see a dfferent phsio at the orthopeadic hospital and he has me doing:

Pistol squats, but it's like only 1/5th of the movement, in order to develop my VMO.
Wall squats with a ball between my legs.
Glute excersies.

To be honest with you, all the above are useless, I have been doing the leg press, which has been the main excersies which has given me a little bit of a VMO. However this hasnt made any difference at all to my pain in the knee.

Due to thin/missing cartiledge knee gets irritated from constant rubbing so it causes me pain even at rest. All this excersies I have been doing recently has not helped.

For cardio I was doing Xtrainer and cycling, but stopped these ass it caused knee pain. I then tried jogging at a slowish pace and tryig to be light on my feet, but this too ws causing me pain.

The only cardio avialable to me is swimming and walking.

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So if Im to do squats, I need to do it in a way a beginer would do it. I need to find 3 excersies that will be beneficial too me.

I was initially thinking leg press, single leg press and step ups. But I could swap step ups for BSS or Squats.....
 
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And we are moving in the right direction :)

I am sure the more experienced and knowledgable then me will be able to offer advice further.

Something of worth. The squat I'd a beginner exercises that should be the first exercise you learn when you start at the gym and should be a staple of your training over the years.
No one is saying going in and smash out 100kg. We all started squatting with its the bar. Your rate of progression will not be rapid but I am pretty sure you will be able to low bar squat without doing further damage, and possible improving your overall knee health, and that this will be more beneficial to you then leg press.
 
So the squats you've tried are with dumbbells. Those aren't squats, and I'd put money on you doing them wrong.

I remember your back story, but the useless physio stuff is new.

For gods sake man, just post the video.
 
So the squats you've tried are with dumbbells. Those aren't squats, and I'd put money on you doing them wrong.

I remember your back story, but the useless physio stuff is new.

For gods sake man, just post the video.
 
Just to add to the above post, the surgeon told me that the arteritis which is what it is is degenerative.

It will get worse. But inactivity is worse than activity. So the point of me developing the muscle around the knee is to try and take some of the impacts of the knee joint.... and carry on for as long as I can (stand the pain, discomfort and general unhappyness) untill I finally need to have the partial knee replacement. (Most likely will not be able to squat after that!)

Whether this is next year, in 5 years or in 20 all depends on variables that no one knows.

At the moment knee is killing me. but I have been doing lots of cardio (walking) so maybe this is what has aggrevated it.

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Sometimes I think I should give up, as it's hopeless ad I'm just huffing and puffing. But, then I still have to live out the rest of my days, so I might as well carry on with weights, even if it is in a limited capacity.

The only thing I can do is try my best, carry on, stop feeling sorry for my self and do what needs to be done!
 
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Seriously, what's wrong with you?!

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Video

Also, just building muscle around your knee won't do any good. You need to build functional strength, ie stregth in good positions and with good movement. There is no way you're doing that now.

Why am I even bothering...
 
Seriously, what's wrong with you?!

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A

Video

Also, just building muscle around your knee won't do any good. You need to build functional strength, ie stregth in good positions and with good movement. There is no way you're doing that now.

Why am I even bothering...


Your bothering becuase Im trying! As for functional strength that makes sense.
 
I don't want you guys to get angry with me, as I do want to find leg excersises I can do to make my leg stronger.

The physio keeps banging on about VMO and yes, the internet seems to suggest that the VMO plays a big role in knee cap pain and management.

However, I have read in the past that squats are not a great idea for people with my issue.

I did a little google and if you look here under symptoms, it does say that squats and walking down stairs are examples that cause pain. (Both of which are issues for me)

You can also see here, it lists squats as a excersise that aggrevates problem.

And then it goes on to say do not do the following:

Do not do the following exercises:
lunges
squats
stair-stepper machines
leg extension machine

I'm not ruling it out. But shouldnt I do exercises to build up my leg muscle first, before I move on to trying to incoporate squats in my routine?

'Needing to learn to walk first before running' comes to mind.
 
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I'm not ruling it out. But shouldnt I do exercises to build up my leg muscle first, before I move on to trying to incoporate squats in my routine?

'Needing to learn to walk first before running' comes to mind.
No.

Look, part of what is frustrating about your argument here is that it seems like a good portion of it is self prescribed. Do you not think it slightly foolish to presume you can be making informed decisions on a subject that you really know nothing about?

Would it blow your mind to know that the VMO isn't a thing, in fact it's just the VM? Potential red flag if your physio doesn't know that.

You are not going to damage yourself doing one set of bodyweight squats.
 
No.

Look, part of what is frustrating about your argument here is that it seems like a good portion of it is self prescribed. Do you not think it slightly foolish to presume you can be making informed decisions on a subject that you really know nothing about?

Would it blow your mind to know that the VMO isn't a thing, in fact it's just the VM? Potential red flag if your physio doesn't know that.

You are not going to damage yourself doing one set of bodyweight squats.

I suppose the thing I find interesting is your attitude, Opeth: you seem determined to find out why you can't do something as opposed to what will help you recovery from it.

The links you provided all indicate that - unsurprisingly - squatting with poor mobility, tight/imbalanced muscles, bad posture and foot control cause pain in individuals with your condition. You may not be surprised that these things cause issues for people without your condition, too. :)

If you turn your Google searches around (i.e. recovery from...), strangely, a lot of the results involve - you guessed it - squatting to parallel (boxes), hamstring and other glute work. ;)

To put it simply: we're trying to help you recover, not to humiliate you or anytning like that. You are getting a lot of experienced advice from people like Syla5 and particularly icecold and whilst they don't have offices or certificates on the wall, it should be easy to see that you current state and the advice you've been given by those people with offices and certificates is not helping. Why not try something new? :)
 
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