**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Drawing zerg in 2v2 is not much fun unless you're up against noobing terrans.

Then it's a matter of roflstomping them with 5 mutalisks.
 
H2F Scott said:
Man I just wasn't used to the whole larva mechanic. So many larva and I didn't know how to use them. Same with minerals, I wasn't using my larvae correctly so I built up 1000 minerals before I was even at 30 supply. Zerg is confusing. :(
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I find if you 6 pool you don't have to worry about any of that :-)

But yeah, in terms of mechanics Zerg is definitely the most difficult right now with queens and spawning larvae.

Hopefully they dumb that down a bit maybe as at lower levels it really puts zerg at a disadvantage compared to chronoboost or mules/scans.
 
Nah, I hope they don't dumb it down any. People already think SC2 is shallow compared to BW. I want all the BW Korean pros to move over to SC2, not ignore it because Blizzard dumbed it down too much and made it less competitive. I'll learn how to play Zerg eventually. :p
 
H2F Scott said:
Nah, I hope they don't dumb it down any. People already think SC2 is shallow compared to BW. I want all the BW Korean pros to move over to SC2, not ignore it because Blizzard dumbed it down too much and made it less competitive. I'll learn how to play Zerg eventually. :p
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The problem with the queen and spawn larvae is it's not like chronoboost or even mules, where a player can strategically deploy it. It's an empty apm requirement for Zergs. They _have_ to spawn larva every 45s or whatever in order to stay in the game. For protoss, if they forget to chrono something, they can just come in and smack down 89 mana of chrono in a second and reap full benefit. Likewise terrans can bring down 3 mules fast as they like.

For zergs if they forget to spawn larva, then, particularly after a crucial battle, it can be deadly.

I find that a little bit unfair, and not terribly interesting either. Chrono and mules/scans give strategic options. The queen/larva doesn't. All it does is add to the already complicated mechanical requirements of a zerg player.

I wish the queen abilities could be a bit more dynamic and for spawn larvae to be a real choice (rather than just something you have to remember to do every 40 odd seconds). This would probably mean adding another useful ability to the queen. Not sure what it would be, but the zerg needs a bit of a buff anyway.

I'm not so sure I agree SC2 is shallow compared to BW. I remember when SC1 came out (like in 1998), the mechanics in the first couple of years were much simpler than those that are already in place for SC2.

It was over time the and particularly with Broodwar, that the potential depths of SC1 mechanical play was discovered. I think watching people like Nony weaving magic with Phoenix micro, or this one game with Idra getting owned by blink micro. There's plenty of scope for outrageous high level play in SC2. Whether it will be edge of the seat stuff like with Reaver scarabs, or spider mines, time will tell (although helions already look like coming close :)).
 
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just pulled out broodwars and man i cannot play it for the life of me, I just cant remember what everything does anymore, not tried online as i cant even beat the computer....hope I can get a hang of this before i get it :(
 
^ one way to fix that would be to make the queens store the larve up. So if you miss spewing larve after big battles then you could spew 30 or whatever amount of larve all at once (the number would obviously be shared out between the number of queens you have) being able to select the number to spew from each queen might be a good idea.

So you could spew all 30 at you main base to defend or spew 10 at main and 20 at an expansion to defend exp
 
Actually that's a very cool idea, rather than injecting larva (i.e. it being tied to a hatchery), the queen could spawn larva directly herself, independent of the hatchery.

I guess the problem with this though, is them building 50 queens and that would be way overpowered. The alternative is to be able to make one queen per hatchery, but then that would cause problems as early phoenixes or other air harass would own Zerg.

But if you could work out a way to balance it, it would add a lot of dynamicism to zerg play.
 
Whilst I agree the Queen Macro Mechanic for Zerg is way less forgiving than the Terran and Protoss Equivalent, I'm not that sure that its as bad as is currently being made out (or as bad as I made out in my first post after the change). Yes it does mean less larva available. But you know what? I was rarely ever able to use all that larva in one go in the early game anyway (i.e. off a 2 hatch build you would have 14 larva every 45 seconds or so) Which was way more than I had economy for.
I think that as my macro gets better and my APM rises, then I will start to get to a position where I am creating 14 units every 45 seconds (in the early game - late game I add more hatches), but as a side effect of my macro and APM getting better I will no doubt become more competent at making my queens spit their load every 25 seconds.

Overall, whilst not being as noob friendly as the other macro mechanics, it does require the zerg player to develop better habits over all, which can only be a good thing long term.

If you are finding you are getting built up energy spend it on creep tumors (building 4 next to each other will spread the creep in that area 4x as fast.) You can then send all 4 creep tumors off in different directions and cover the map with goo. Your creep speed makes a super difference in games. Top players like TheLittleOne have made comments such as "Hydras really should not fight off creep, if it can be helped." Due to the micro bonus you get from the improved movement speed.

I think Idra who is known for is mechanical and macro skills (and as the best Westerner SC2 Zerg player (and the most successful westerner SC1 Player in recent history (i.e. the only one currently playing in Korean tournaments and signed up to a Korean Team))) uses the queens early game more for creep tumors than he does for larva.

lastly if you have 300 minerals after a full round of larva has been turned into eggs it may be worth thinking about a new expansion (more hatches = more larva = more units).
 
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kar said:
I find if you 6 pool you don't have to worry about any of that :-)

But yeah, in terms of mechanics Zerg is definitely the most difficult right now with queens and spawning larvae.

Hopefully they dumb that down a bit maybe as at lower levels it really puts zerg at a disadvantage compared to chronoboost or mules/scans.
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I find zerg as the easiest! Terran is my most hatted race shame the game is about there saga initially and that zerg will be the last one! I guess they save the best till last!
 
dane3388 said:
I find zerg as the easiest! Terran is my most hatted race shame the game is about there saga initially and that zerg will be the last one! I guess they save the best till last!
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I'm worst with terran. Don't hate them, but they seem to hate me :(

Maybe after the campaign we'll all be awesome with terran? :p
 
Haha or maybe i will get fed up of the campaign before the end and throw it out of the window! Terran is always the race online that all the noobs play as. There are also some pros but not to many in between. Once official release is out i imagine a lot of people will be playing as terran online as that is what they are used to. Good for me as i will baneling bust their asses haha...
 
Well if the game ships as it exists in patch 15, then LOTS of people will play Terran, because it's in my opinion the by far the best race. Especially at lower/mid levels.

I mean below gold level, all you need to do is build 3 barracks, pump out 12 marines and a half dozen marauders, march it to your opponents base. Game over.

Now you can defend this pretty easily, but you really need to know what a) you're doing and b) the terran is doing.

At higher levels the Terrans can open up with a Barracks, Factory and Starport and from there proceed to do exactly the perfect counter to whatever the other player is doing and they are all set.

I'm probably overstating it, a little bit, but not by much I think :)
 
Hmm. Best? or Easiest? I'd say neither, but then I dont think any of them are 'best' or 'easy'

I'm (pre-end beta) a high gold level player. Mainly protoss, sometimes zerg if i want to have some fun. Having moved through levels below gold i have to say that I've never seen terran get such an easy win in those leagues.

Maybe if you're going from diamond level timing then yes you'll get the easy win. But the same goes for any race. If i went up against Nazgul he could probably just 2 gate me and win because his timing and macro would just be so much better than mine. Doesnt matter that he's protoss though.

At higher levels, I suppose I can't really comment because i'm not...yknow...good. But it's worth remembering that Terrans arent going and winning all of the big tourneys. Seems to imply that there's nothing too overpowered about them.

I dont know what it's like on the platinum/diamond ladder though, so you could just say i'm wrong and i'd accept that :o

It's also worth considering maps. Some would say that zerg is overpowered on Metalopolis, similarly terran on incineration zone. Dunno...you're right that the build possibilities are very diverse in terms of quickly countering opponents though. Probably why TLO's taken so much interest in them recently..

EDIT: Ninja'd :D
 
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