**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

I was wondering, are any plat/diamond level zerg trying expanding before pool build orders? In the lower leagues I seem to be having a fair bit of success with it. I thought it would be fairly risky, but generally the extra larva and income mean that against early pushes you can pretty much spam an army out as soon as you see them coming. Obviously it's not great against 6 pools and rubbish like that mind, and you do need to keep an eye on their ramp, but it seems to work reasonably well.

I was just wondering what the more knowledgeable zergies thought of this :).
 
I was wondering, are any plat/diamond level zerg trying expanding before pool build orders? In the lower leagues I seem to be having a fair bit of success with it. I thought it would be fairly risky, but generally the extra larva and income mean that against early pushes you can pretty much spam an army out as soon as you see them coming. Obviously it's not great against 6 pools and rubbish like that mind, and you do need to keep an eye on their ramp, but it seems to work reasonably well.

I was just wondering what the more knowledgeable zergies thought of this :).

Its quite a common opening. FruitDealer (thats right guys i've finally been watching replays!) uses it a lot. Its much easier to get away with now since the Reaper nerf and the Zealot build time nerf.

the general build for it is:
14 Hatch at expo
13 Pool
15 Overlord
Save larva and spam some lings if needed... Or just drone up should you see no agression.

You'll need 2 queens up quite fast as well. Spreading the creep is very important with this build.

If it appears their going for an early timing push, then throw down some spine crawlers.

I use this opening occasionally on larger maps. Its quite risky in lower leagues as obviously, this build gets piddled all over by chesse etc. I make a habbit of scouting early with this build.

I also tend to avoid it against protoss that look like they can wall off your ramp, making your expo tough to defend. In this case i only do it if i can prevent the wall in.
 
is zerg the way to go now then? seems everyone and their dog are switching....

not really, i just think the game is becoming more balanced, just needs time so people can adjust to the new Roach style defense and push, along with the tech switch.

nobody can deny Zerg were in certain need of balancing.

Think people switching is more because they want to learn how they work so they can play their main race more effectivly. -OR- They are frustrated with the changing gameplay and think that Zerg is a faceroll race. Think their in for a surprise! ;) .. i know i was when I played Terran for a while!
 
my macro is pretty bad so i dont think i could ever do zerg, although i have noticed when messing about with the cpu that its pretty easy to hold off a push with zerg and they can really spam out the units.

this is gonna sound like a noob question (dont really care) but why is it vital to get a second expo up asap with zerg? in my mess abouts iv noticed that their economy is pretty mental so why the need for 2nd expo so early? is it simply for unit making?
 
my macro is pretty bad so i dont think i could ever do zerg, although i have noticed when messing about with the cpu that its pretty easy to hold off a push with zerg and they can really spam out the units.

this is gonna sound like a noob question (dont really care) but why is it vital to get a second expo up asap with zerg? in my mess abouts iv noticed that their economy is pretty mental so why the need for 2nd expo so early? is it simply for unit making?


Yeah the idea is that Zerg can tech switch easy or pump out a lot of units.. so if they scout your units moving, they can quickly produce a counter.

Not a noob question at all.. actually quite relevant!
The reason being is that Zerg units, on their own are generally weak. Their a swarming race and rely upon great numbers rather than single unit power unlike the other two races.
For this reason, they need twice the resources and hatcherys giving them the ability to constantly pump out units.

for example, Protoss have Zealots, quite a solid unit, even on its own. however quite costly. Zerglings, cheap, weak, only good in mass.
Takes 4 Zerglings to kill a Zealot.
Same principal for Marauders/Roaches.. if you see what im getting at.

Also, two production buildings is better than one ! :)

General rule of thumb is that Zerg need 1 more base than Terran and Protoss to match them in terms of economy/production

Hope that makes sence, im not the best at explaining ^^
 
Its quite a common opening. FruitDealer (thats right guys i've finally been watching replays!) uses it a lot. Its much easier to get away with now since the Reaper nerf and the Zealot build time nerf.

the general build for it is:
14 Hatch at expo
13 Pool
15 Overlord
Save larva and spam some lings if needed... Or just drone up should you see no agression.

You'll need 2 queens up quite fast as well. Spreading the creep is very important with this build.

If it appears their going for an early timing push, then throw down some spine crawlers.

I use this opening occasionally on larger maps. Its quite risky in lower leagues as obviously, this build gets piddled all over by chesse etc. I make a habbit of scouting early with this build.

I also tend to avoid it against protoss that look like they can wall off your ramp, making your expo tough to defend. In this case i only do it if i can prevent the wall in.

Yeah this is the build order I've been going for (although I get extractor after pool for some speedling goodness). Fruitdealer was my inspiration for switching, he seems to pull it off so fantastically well, it's insane!

is zerg the way to go now then? seems everyone and their dog are switching....

For the record I never switched, I've always been a zerg player. I don't really get on with the mechanics of t or p, it really doesn't suit me. I have noticed a small increase in zerg players on the ladder though, but only in so far that it's actually getting close to the number of people who play t or p. This can only be a good thing imo.

my macro is pretty bad so i dont think i could ever do zerg, although i have noticed when messing about with the cpu that its pretty easy to hold off a push with zerg and they can really spam out the units.

this is gonna sound like a noob question (dont really care) but why is it vital to get a second expo up asap with zerg? in my mess abouts iv noticed that their economy is pretty mental so why the need for 2nd expo so early? is it simply for unit making?

Not a noobish question at all :), it's a very good one actually.

The reason why is because zerg's economy only becomes mental once you have several expansions. The fact that zerg can produce lots of drones at once is essentially pointless if you only have one base to use them on. In the case of tvz in particular, a 1 base terran will out-macro a 1 base zerg because of mules, meaning it is pretty vital to get up an expansion before the terran.

Also you can mass double the number of units and all that good stuff.

edit: Or alternatively read what Indie put :p, a much better answer
 
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personally when i spawn as zerg I bind all my queens to say, 3.

Then I press 3, v, [hold shift], backspace, click, backspace, click, etc.

backspace automatically centers the screen on each hatch every time you press it, so with a little bit of practice it only takes 2-3 seconds to inject 4+ hatches.
 
Finally jumped in to my placement matches tonight after a learning to play via friends for ages. Was going well until the last two games when i was put against Gold players, damn macro. Huge armies coming after me lol.

Now a mid Silver player, will be fun!
 
right this is annoying me now. i'm in bronze and nearly every game i play i'm favoured. this means i win 8 on the bounce and get minimal points and it all gets wiped out when i lose one to a cheeky rush or something. i dont think i've been the underdog for about 20 matches now - whats up with that?

lots more zerg about now - not played a toss in a while...
 
I'm just going to put this out there, and I'm ready for the counter fire :)

But...I think now Zerg are OP.

The range buff to roaches is actually huge v protoss. Such a small change makes such a massive difference to the game.

The only issue though, is at range 3, there's so much abuse Protoss can do to Zerg. The buff now means this harass is pretty much impossible and that (relative) safety means the Zerg can drone like crazy.

It is very hard to enter the mid game on equal terms. And with Protoss gateway units being so cost inefficient it's hard to keep up with a 3+ basing Zerg. Colossi still rule, but the roach buff helps here too since if the Zerg can get up to 4 bases while you're building your ball, they can just throw 200 supply of roaches at you, use 8 or so mutas to destroy your econ when you push out, and then just clean up what's left over with lings and more roaches. The roach has basically become an sc1 hydralisk which can't shoot air. But that's fine, protoss air sucks anyway.

I don't know what the answer is, tbh. I wonder if giving stalkers range 7 or something might help both vs early game marauders, the ridiculousness of massed mutas and give stalkers a boost vs early game roaches while still letting zergs punish overly greedy expand builds. The other option is a redesign of the void ray, to be less an anti building unit, and more an anti-armored ground unit. The immortal is too slow to build and too immobile to project mobile force. The void ray could fill this niche well I think.
 
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I'm just going to put this out there, and I'm ready for the counter fire :)

But...I think now Zerg are OP.

The range buff to roaches is actually huge v protoss. Such a small change makes such a massive difference to the game.

The only problem though is at range 3, there's so much abuse Protoss can do to Zerg. Problem is though the roach buff holds pretty much ALL early protoss pressure strategies and means Zerg can drone like crazy.

This means the mid game is very hard to enter into on equal terms. And with Protoss units being so cost inefficient it's hard to keep up with a 3/4 basing Zerg.

I don't know what the answer is, tbh. I wonder if giving stalkers range 7 or something might help both vs early game marauders, the ridiculousness of massed mutas and give stalkers a boost vs early game roaches while still letting zergs punish overly greedy expand builds.

Dunno about OP. im still finding ZvP quite hard. Easier, but still difficult. I find that a lot of protoss players have thrown standard gate openings away and are teching to pheonix/VR much quicker. basically forces us to go hydra and stop producing roaches. that or cannon blocking preventing expansion, which gives you free tech ability to go immo/VR/Pheonix/fast expo.

I think buffing Stalkers range would just mess everything up. Terran wouldn't stand a chance early game, and the Roach buff would just be null.

Im not sure what can be done really. i can see where your coming from, im finding roaches very tough atm, I find i lose most to Sentry play to be honest.

EDIT: redesign of the VR would be nice to see, i really don't like them as they are. however i don't think we can expect to see such a thing anytime soon.
 
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Dunno if i'm ready to call it OP, but it's certainly a huge difference in the matchup.

I've been playing around with the phoenix harass that I practiced with Indie, but as soon as it's scouted, spore crawlers protect the mineral lines and just a few hydras do the rest.
If the zergie doesnt throw down spore crawlers and tries to get hydras/defend with only queens, then phoenixes can put some serious hurt on the zerg economy.
There is always that timing window if it's not scouted for protoss to do some damage, but it doesnt last long and once it's over toss must capitalise on the advantage before zerg begins to outmacro them again.


If I'm playing off of one base, it's not easy at all to get a large enough harassment force of phoenix/VR to worry a zerg into hydralisks and then switch up into colossi (which requires going down a whole new tech path) in a safe way. Two bases' worth of air->colossi and a zerg will already have expanded ad infinitum, so they'll have more than enough economy to tailor their army on the fly.

So a zerg can very easily temper hydra production to adequately counter a reasonably air army, then transitioning into roach/corruptor to take on a ground assault is far easier (plus it shouldnt take up all of the larva unless the protoss is all in with air, so zerg can continue to expand).


I dont think stalkers need a range buff however. In fact, I would argue that stalkers should be made cheaper, say, to match the cost of a marauder (nothing more horrifying than 2 marauders kiting your expensive zealot and stalker).

As Kar says, protoss unit cost efficiency vs Terran is terrible before higher tech. Now that roaches are so strong, the same is becoming true vs zerg. The exception is zerglings, which get rofl-imbastomped by zealot/sentry. But roaches are so easy to get out and so strong now that there's very little protoss can do in the early game.

Once Templar/Colossi are out, we can throw down 500 dps without too much trouble, but before then we just need a bit more unit efficiency. All other units are well costed imo, but the stalker is so expensive.

On the other hand, in large numbers, blinked stalkers can be very powerful, so it's a difficult one to call. Although, hydra/ling or roaches with a decent surround should take down a stalker ball without too much difficulty.


Bit of a braindump in this post. I dont want to call imba, as it's not been that long since the patch and with such a shift in the matchup there's still time for protoss player to explore all options. But it's certainly at least balanced the matchup. I personally thought the balance change was borne out of the large process of balancing ZvT, against hellion harass and reapers. It's certainly had a dramatic effect on both.
 
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I think buffing Stalkers range would just mess everything up. Terran wouldn't stand a chance early game, and the Roach buff would just be null.

The roach range buff wasn't so they could fight stalkers, but rather so they could break the cannons at the ramp cheese, or hit a gateway obscuring cannons at a Protoss FE. Strategies which were all about giving Protoss an unstoppable lead going into the midgame.

Now the opposite is true, before stalkers soft countered roaches until roach speed. Now roaches pretty much softcounter stalkers while still hard countering zealots.

Now immortals are the answer...but then that cuts stalkers to deal with the imminent muta harass/mass expand.

Basically there needs to be some way to threaten Zerg and force a defensive response early game without going all in (i.e. 4 gates). Zerg can now do that to Protoss but not the reverse.
 
The roach range buff wasn't so they could fight stalkers, but rather so they could break the cannons at the ramp cheese, or hit a gateway obscuring cannons at a Protoss FE. Strategies which were all about giving Protoss an unstoppable lead going into the midgame.

Now the opposite is true, before stalkers soft countered roaches until roach speed. Now roaches pretty much softcounter stalkers while still hard countering zealots.

Now immortals are the answer...but then that cuts stalkers to deal with the imminent muta harass/mass expand.

Basically there needs to be some way to threaten Zerg and force a defensive response early game without going all in (i.e. 4 gates). Zerg can now do that to Protoss but not the reverse.

Sentrys always rip through me, only need 1-2 of them, with GS and roaches have no choice but to back off. roaches can't micro them because they'll just end up with a face full of zeals/stalker. Every protoss that has made use of GS has really screwed me over or at minimum put me far behind!

I thought the Roach buff was to directly counter the fact that anything T1.5 from the other races could just rip them to shreds with totally minimal micro, or non at all.

The ramping into FE/Tech imo wasnt really that strong, sure it was annoying.. and the first couple times you see it its like.. "okay wtf are you doing to me!? :o" but in SC1 Protoss were still able to do a similar strat and still be ahead. Zerg would have to double expand to keep economy. We had hydras at T1.5 then instead, with speed/range upgradable. Even with those, extreamly difficult to bust a protoss FE with an all in.

Personally i preferd it when Protoss used to just wall me in. Its easy to break with a spine or sometimes just the queen, and gives you free, safe lair tech and a great 1base economy. with the option of countering with nydus play and getting your expo up with your scouting drone.

I think Alex is quite right, Stalker price reduction would be quite nice to see. I don't think it would have a massive effect, maybe bringing them down to 100/50, that way keeps them balanced mid game when they have blink.

It will be interesting to see how the next GSL pans out. with really only 2 Zerg players that were decent.. or should i say SEEMED decent. Could be that all the Zerg players were extreamly talented but couldn't get anywhere due to the weakness of the race. Who knows! i think its too early to call OP though, see how the pro's fair!

EDIT: I still want to see a Pheonix/DT build against Zerg. the old Sair/DT/RVR used to absolutely raaape!

infact.. i may test it ^^
 
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You can't get phoenix and dt fast enough on one base in this game.

The thing with the ramp blocking, wasn't so much to win the game outright. But for 350 minerals you could safely fe with minimal units AND you delayed the zerg expo.

On many maps it took a while to spread creep out far enough to get a spine crawler to take out the pylons. Now roaches can get a great arc on them and really it's a pointless strategy as as soon as the zerg has 4/5 roaches the wall is ineffective.
 
You can't get phoenix and dt fast enough on one base in this game.

The thing with the ramp blocking, wasn't so much to win the game outright. But for 350 minerals you could safely fe with minimal units AND you delayed the zerg expo.

On many maps it took a while to spread creep out far enough to get a spine crawler to take out the pylons. Now roaches can get a great arc on them and really it's a pointless strategy as as soon as the zerg has 4/5 roaches the wall is ineffective.

Nono you couldn't do sair/dt off one base either, you use an FE build and get phenoix up ASAP to harass with, then use your DT for map control. im gonna try it, i'll use my sisters account though so i don't tarnish my own with the yoda wannabe race ^^

Yeah on Maps like Steppes or Delta Quadrant its pretty tricky to do.. though i've managed to fend off this tact without roaches/pre-patch. , but then again those maps hate zerg anyway! unless your FruitDealer ^^
 
Interesting reading above.

From a complete noob player (6th Bronze league with 50% win/loss ratio) since the patch I have lost to every single Zerg player (me as terran)

Now prior to the patch I would say that I was up and down against Zerg but I just can't seem to handle or find a solution to mass roach attacks.

I've tried using marines/maurders, thors, tanks everything that I can think off including the maurder slow down perk(can;t remember the term!!) etc. Even buffing the marines with extra sheilds and stimp and I just get mauled by mass roach (lets not even mention mass muta!!!) Even tried hellion harsh etc but they get get smashed by roaches now

Any tips on handling mass roaches as terran would be great.
 
Interesting reading above.

From a complete noob player (6th Bronze league with 50% win/loss ratio) since the patch I have lost to every single Zerg player (me as terran)

Now prior to the patch I would say that I was up and down against Zerg but I just can't seem to handle or find a solution to mass roach attacks.

I've tried using marines/maurders, thors, tanks everything that I can think off including the maurder slow down perk(can;t remember the term!!) etc. Even buffing the marines with extra sheilds and stimp and I just get mauled by mass roach (lets not even mention mass muta!!!) Even tried hellion harsh etc but they get get smashed by roaches now

Any tips on handling mass roaches as terran would be great.

You want marauders + concussive shell + stim pack and you will kill the hell out of roaches (cost for cost). If he's out producing you that's a macro (i.e. he has more money and more production capacity) issue.
 
Interesting reading above.

From a complete noob player (6th Bronze league with 50% win/loss ratio) since the patch I have lost to every single Zerg player (me as terran)

Now prior to the patch I would say that I was up and down against Zerg but I just can't seem to handle or find a solution to mass roach attacks.

I've tried using marines/maurders, thors, tanks everything that I can think off including the maurder slow down perk(can;t remember the term!!) etc. Even buffing the marines with extra sheilds and stimp and I just get mauled by mass roach (lets not even mention mass muta!!!) Even tried hellion harsh etc but they get get smashed by roaches now

Any tips on handling mass roaches as terran would be great.

Are they JUST using roach? .. if so just spam marauders. their approx the same cost and marauders rip roaches to tiny bits!

If they add some zerglings into the mix, add a couple hellions behind your marauders.
If they add hydra. add some tanks and marines

worry if they go infestors another time, but i can't see bronze players using infestors very effectively.
 
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