Our morals and laws come from religion?

[Glaucus]

Our basic laws and morals in the Uk certainly are roughly based on Christianity, however that's not to say that the same basic set of laws/morals do not pre date religion, or would not form without religion.

 

[AGD]

How so?

Well even today we see women excluded in the catholic church from any position of power or influence. Imagine a business which said none of the managers or board members could ever be women! It would be closed down immediately for discriminating in such a manner. Homosexuals have been constantly discriminated against by the catholic church even more so than women.

 

[trigger-happy]

Thanks for the replies guys, this is most helpful

 

[semi-pro waster]

In common with some here I'd say religion has had an important role in helping shape our morals and laws but as to whether it is necessary for religion to exist before morals and law - I'd doubt it. For instance if we take the 10 Commandments then not killing, stealing and not committing adultery (we can argue about this one) are fairly vital in terms of forming a functional (vaguely) civilised society and probably would come about anyway, most of the rest aren't all that necessary for a basic functional society. What religion did well was to spread the message and importance of these values/rules and while I'm sure it could have been done without it the vehicle certainly helped with the speed/acceptance/adherence to the rules.

 

[Castiel]

In common with some here I'd say religion has had an important role in helping shape our morals and laws but as to whether it is necessary for religion to exist before morals and law - I'd doubt it. For instance if we take the 10 Commandments then not killing, stealing and not committing adultery (we can argue about this one) are fairly vital in terms of forming a functional (vaguely) civilised society and probably would come about anyway, most of the rest aren't all that necessary for a basic functional society. What religion did well was to spread the message and importance of these values/rules and while I'm sure it could have been done without it the vehicle certainly helped with the speed/acceptance/adherence to the rules.

Religion was and to some extent still is a good way to enforce rules and laws needed to further Civilisation across large groups of people without the need of Troops and Militias standing on every street corner and in every home.

Priesthoods are cheap, controllable and good enforcers of state laws and morals.


It is also an invaluable way to induct your own culture onto others, bringing them into your sphere of influence.

For those who maintain that ethical values predate Religion, it is highly probable that the two are so interrelated that they came about around the same time and led to the creation of civilizations like the Early Dynastic Egyptians and other early Chalcolithic civilizations.

Religion, at least organised belief structures with moral values and laws almost certainly predate what we would call the first real civilisation Sumer or Dynastic Egypt.

One example of this is the Cult of Hathor in Ancient Egypt, evidence of worship of a Cow Deity can be found in prehistoric Egyptian burial sites in Nabta Playa.

 

[RomanNose]

Religion was and to some extent still is a good way to enforce rules and laws needed to further Civilisation across large groups of people without the need of Troops and Militias standing on every street corner and in every home.

Priesthoods are cheap, controllable and good enforcers of state laws and morals.


It is also an invaluable way to induct your own culture onto others, bringing them into your sphere of influence.

For those who maintain that ethical values predate Religion, it is highly probable that the two are so interrelated that they came about around the same time and led to the creation of civilizations like the Early Dynastic Egyptians and other early Chalcolithic civilizations.

Religion, at least organised belief structures with moral values and laws almost certainly predate what we would call the first real civilisation Sumer or Dynastic Egypt.

One example of this is the Cult of Hathor in Ancient Egypt, evidence of worship of a Cow Deity can be found in prehistoric Egyptian burial sites in Nabta Playa.

Did you just say that priests are good enforces of law and morals?
You clearly have not seen this, for reference this was just one month.

 

[bhavv]

LOl, priests and theists are hardly the most moral or good people around these days.

 

[Castiel]

Did you just say that priests are good enforces of law and morals?
You clearly have not seen this, for reference this was just one month.

LOl, priests and theists are hardly the most moral or good people around these days.

Well you are unsurprisingly looking at a few selected examples which only illustrate your own bias and prejudices.

Also history tells us that the priesthoods of religions have been used by Rulers to enforce their laws and morals across their kingdoms and empires, they have been and still are extremely effective at it.

If you read what I said, it speaks to historicity and not the isolated examples of fools co-opting faith to further their own warped agenda. As for your little video, I wonder what would happen if you done the same but removed anything to do with religion and just looked at the immoral and unlawful behaviour of everyone else, do you really think that the majority of crime is conducted by Theists?

The tragedy is that you sit there and actually believe that nonsense hook line and sinker..... you are no different than the religious zealots that point to Atheists and say they are incapable of morality.


Are neither of you capable of having a reasoned discussion on anything related to religions without simply talking stereotypes and daily mail nonsense.

 

[bhavv]

Well you are unsurprisingly looking at a few selected examples which only illustrate your own bias and prejudices.

Also history tells us that the priesthoods of religions have been used by Rulers to enforce their laws and morals across their kingdoms and empires, they have been and still are extremely effective at it.

Are neither of you capable of having a reasoned discussion on anything related to religions without simply talking stereotypes and daily mail nonsense.

History also shows us that Religion = dark ages, slavery, executions of accused witches, and war as well.

Arent you capable of understanding that religion is nowhere near as great as you personally think it is?

 

[bhavv]

What a brilliant example of religious morality today:

http://johannhari.com//2011/02/25/c...ow?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

Can we talk about Muslim homophobia now?

Last autumn, mysterious posters began to appear all over the East End of London announcing it is now a "Gay-Free Zone." They warned: "And Fear Allah: Verily Allah is Severe in Punishment." One of them was plastered outside the apartment block I lived in for nearly ten years, next to adverts for club nights and classes at the local library, as if it was natural and normal. I'd like to say I'm shocked - but anybody who lives there knows this has been a long time coming.

Here's a few portents from the East End that we have chosen to ignore. In May 2008, a 15 year old Muslim girl tells her teacher she thinks she might be gay, and the Muslim teacher in a state-funded comprehensive tells her "there are no gays round here" and she will "burn in hell" if she ever acts on it. (I know because she emailed me, suicidal and begging for help). In September 2008, a young gay man called Oliver Hemsley, is walking home from the gay pub the George and Dragon when a gang of young Muslims stabs him eight times, in the back, in the lungs, and in his spinal column. In January 2010, when the thug who did it is convicted, a gang of thirty Muslims storms the George and Dragon in revenge and violently attacks everybody there. All through, it was normal to see young men handing out leaflets outside the Whitechapel Ideas Store saying gays are "evil." Most people accept them politely.

These are not isolated incidents. East London has seen the highest increase in homophobic attacks anywhere in Britain, and some of the worst in Europe. Everybody knows why, and nobody wants to say it. It is because East London has the highest Muslim population in Britain, and we have allowed a fanatically intolerant attitude towards gay people to incubate there, in the name of "tolerance". The most detailed opinion survey of British Muslims was carried out by Gallup, who correctly predicted the result of the last general election. In their extensive polling, they found literally no British Muslims who would say homosexuality is "morally acceptable." Every one of the Muslims they polled objected to it. Even more worryingly, younger Muslims had more stridently anti-gay views than older Muslims. These attitudes have consequences - and they are worst of all for gay Muslims, who have to live a sham half-life of lies, or be shunned by their families.

Funnily enough I've actually started writing a small story about religion and how it came to be...

And the story points out that religion was made up to save humanity from itself. God does not exist, Its merely an illusion to trick natural human behaviour into what we we call "moral" behaviour etc.

I must have been really bored..

People still believed in God without organised religions though. Even if there was no moral code or laws within a religion, people would have still believed in Gods.

Organised religion simply found a way to integrate laws and rules together with peoples beliefs.

Religion and God are two completely seperate concepts though, not all religions believe in a God, or any Gods, and not all people who believe in a God follow a religion.

 

[RomanNose]

Well you are unsurprisingly looking at a few selected examples which only illustrate your own bias and prejudices.

Also history tells us that the priesthoods of religions have been used by Rulers to enforce their laws and morals across their kingdoms and empires, they have been and still are extremely effective at it.

If you read what I said, it speaks to historicity and not the isolated examples of fools co-opting faith to further their own warped agenda. As for your little video, I wonder what would happen if you done the same but removed anything to do with religion and just looked at the immoral and unlawful behaviour of everyone else, do you really think that the majority of crime is conducted by Theists?

The tragedy is that you sit there and actually believe that nonsense hook line and sinker..... you are no different than the religious zealots that point to Atheists and say they are incapable of morality.


Are neither of you capable of having a reasoned discussion on anything related to religions without simply talking stereotypes and daily mail nonsense.

Firstly I am not denying that Religion was used to enforce Morality by kings. What I am saying is that TODAY these child abuse cases that are being exposed day by day are just the tip of the iceberg. The opinion that Religion is currently a good way to spread Morality is not a good one, Morals are dependent on society. However currently these Morals in these scriptures are not in line with current norms, especially in Europe. It is acting as a rope holding many people back to agree with average Morals.
It would have been good for enforcing Morals back for centuries, but not so much now.

Let's just have a look at other people in positions of trust similar to preists that work with Children. These kind of cases are much rarer in the rest of society where these crimes could be committed.The worst part is that other preists are actively covering up these kind of horrendous crimes.

As for the early debate about atheism, I agree that you can never know for certain due to you saying that there is no definition of a God. What other atheists are saying and now that I am saying is that there is probably no God. The attempts to prove there is a god have been futile, I could have a go at slamming the whole bible down but I doubt that you could tell me about a deity without any flaws in.

 

[Castiel]

History also shows us that Religion = dark ages, slavery, executions of accused witches, and war as well.

Arent you capable of understanding that religion is nowhere near as great as you personally think it is?

I am perfectly capable of understanding the failings and accomplishments of religions throughout history. I probably know more about the etymology and history of the major Indo-European and Middle Eastern religions than any on this forum as I think I have proven in various threads, so asking me that is rather stupid.

I don't think that religion is especially "Great and Good", but neither is it especially "Evil and Terrible".

People do bad things and they justify those things in numerous ways, religion is one of them, but religion per se is not evil, it is simply a tool and the wielder decides how it is used.


What is un-necessary is your attempt to derail a thread that has potential to discuss Religion, Ethics, Laws and Civilisation in general without the need to constantly post innane examples of isolated crimes perpetrated by evil people who justify their ignorance and criminality with religion.

A theist could quite easily post millions of articles and crimes relating to evil things done by non-theists everyday and state the opposite. It is childish and frankly boring. If you have nothing sensible and intelligent to say then go bash one out, it may calm you down a little so you can think rationally.

 

[bhavv]

but neither is it especially "Evil and Terrible".

Yet it was for a very very long time for people within a society that didnt believe in their state religion.

A theist could quite easily post millions of articles and crimes relating to evil things done by non-theists everyday and state the opposite. It is childish and frankly boring. If you have nothing sensible and intelligent to say then go bash one out, it may calm you down a little so you can think rationally.

Yet non theists who carry out crimes never link their activities to their beliefs. A vast number of theists that resort to crime feel a completely bizare need to justify their actions based on their religious beliefs.

Also, feel free to check out the Prison religious demographics of the USA:

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%).

So really, morality comes from religion? I strongly doubt that it does or ever has. Such a tiny proportion of Atheists actually carry out crimes in society compared to the proportion of theists who do.

Although with the majority of people being theists, integrating morality into organised religion was obviously required to stop the theists from going around and killing people or stealing and whatever else.

Not that its ever worked very well .

Funny that Theists blame atheists for having no morality when its actually the theists who need to be told by their religion what to do and not to kill people.

 

[Castiel]

Firstly I am not denying that Religion was used to enforce Morality by kings. What I am saying is that TODAY these child abuse cases that are being exposed day by day are just the tip of the iceberg. The opinion that Religion is currently a good way to spread Morality is not a good one, Morals are dependent on society. However currently these Morals in these scriptures are not in line with current norms, especially in Europe. It is acting as a rope holding many people back to agree with average Morals.

Child abuse happens everywhere, it is not only the clergy and you need to look at this objectively. Are paedophiles created by their religious beliefs, or are they attracted to the clergy (and other occupations) because it gives them unfettered access to children?

I have first hand knowledge of what it is to be abused, and it was not by anyone who professed a belief in God or religion, in fact it was a religious man who took me away from the abuse when I was a child. So that, for me, is evidence enough that Religion doesn't create Paedophiles, and that that the latter is true.

In the Church, especially Catholicism, the Holy See and their Cardinals and Bishops should have dealt with the abuse scandals openly and not (understandable though) attempted to sweep them under the carpet so to speak, I can only hope they have learned and will be far more diligent in future.

As for the various Pastors and such, most, if not all of those are not affiliated with any religion, anyone can call themselves a Pastor especially in the United States, and that is something that both the religious and State authorities need to do something about.

As for scripture and it's morals, biblically the OT is what is known as the Old Covenant and as such most Christians believe that it is partly or entirely superseded by the New Covenant given them by Jesus Christ, now whenever I participate in Bible quoting exercises on this Forum, all the naysayers begin to quote Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and so on, rarely are they quoting the New Testament which set out an entirely new Covenant and moral law to abide by.

What do the vast majority of Christians for example do?, they live their lives morally and lawfully. That a minority choose to interpret the scripture to suit their own twisted predilection for hatred says more about them than it does about the religion they claim to follow.

It would have been good for enforcing Morals back for centuries, but not so much now.

I think that the need for religion to actively enforce morals or law in modern western societies is no longer needed, they can and do teach to their congregations and you would be hard pressed to find a CofE or Catholic Church that is preaching hatred against minority groups or advocating Leviticus as the right thing to do.

Let's just have a look at other people in positions of trust similar to preists that work with Children. These kind of cases are much rarer in the rest of society where these crimes could be committed.The worst part is that other preists are actively covering up these kind of horrendous crimes.

I think I covered this earlier in this post. I will say that cases involving children are far more numerous i the home than in any institution be it secular or otherwise, so that limits your argument somewhat.

It is almost certainly not true that Priests are any more likely to abuse children than workers in non-religious positions of trust. Outside of their families, the State care system is the most likely place that a child will come into contact with abuse, sexual or otherwise.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/rese...ence_of_child_abuse_and_neglect_wda48740.html

As for the early debate about atheism, I agree that you can never know for certain due to you saying that there is no definition of a God. What other atheists are saying and now that I am saying is that there is probably no God. The attempts to prove there is a god have been futile, I could have a go at slamming the whole bible down but I doubt that you could tell me about a deity without any flaws in.

I am Agnostic, I have no issue with Atheists, in fact I was until a few years ago an Atheist of the Richard Dawkins variety (before he went mental with anti-theistic rage anyway), as I have gotten older and experience what I have in life I have soften somewhat my stance on spirituality and I am of the opinion that many people do the same as they get older and more aware of their mortality.

What I don't like is people telling me what I should and should not believe, that goes for preachers on street corners who tell me I'm going to hell if I don't follow Christ to Richard Dawkins telling me I am a retard if I believe in any kind of God.

Neither group can prove what they say to my satisfaction and unlike many I have studied their beliefs myself in great depth. I will make up my own mind what I do or do not believe and if people generally just left people alone to do the same the world would be a better place.

 

[bhavv]

FYI Richard Dawkins has always claimed that he is Agnostic.

I dont agree that he is though because that would make me agnostic too.

 

[Judgeneo]

Policing isn't what it used to be in the past.
Religion was an excellent tool for crime prevention, so yes I imagine many of our Laws etc.. did indeed stem from religion.

But not our morals. Our morals created the rules in religion (unless you believe it all came form God)

 

[Castiel]

Yet it was for a very very long time for people within a society that didnt believe in their state religion.

You need to separate religous belief from political and socio-economical influences and cultural extremes on the choices of fundamentalism before you can go making that kind of claim.

Pogroms and Inquisitions are not simply the purview of religions, they have been used far more successfully by States and Political Leaders especially since the rise of Atheism since the 18th Century.

Yet non theists who carry out crimes never link their activities to their beliefs. A vast number of theists that resort to crime feel a completely bizare need to justify their actions based on their religious beliefs.

So what?

I fail to see how justification by someone fro their own actions actually means anything.

Also, feel free to check out the Prison religious demographics of the USA:

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm



So really, morality comes from religion? I strongly doubt that it does or ever has. Such a tiny proportion of Atheists actually carry out crimes in society compared to the proportion of theists who do.

You will have to prove that Atheists commit fewer crimes per capita than Theists to make that kind of judgement.

Quoting some anti creationist site is not really going to cut it I'm afraid.

Although with the majority of people being theists, integrating morality into organised religion was obviously required to stop the theists from going around and killing people or stealing and whatever else.

I think you need to look at how civilastion came about before making such claims, which came first, Belief or Civilisation?

Funny that Theists blame atheists for having no morality when its actually the theists who need to be told by their religion what to do and not to kill people.

LolBhavv.

 

[bhavv]

But not our morals. Our morals created the rules in religion (unless you believe it all came form God)

Thats a great way of putting it. Morality existed prior to religion, and organised religion just incorporated it to control their masses with their fear of god and eternal hellfire.

Morals and Laws were not invented by religion however.

Quoting some anti creationist site is not really going to cut it I'm afraid.

Those figures are the official prison demographics in the USA, lots of other sites then quoted them and wrote articles. You can try and look up 'prison religion demographics' yourself if you want, and you should find the same results for the USA demographics on lots of articles.

 

[Castiel]

FYI Richard Dawkins has always claimed that he is Agnostic.

I dont agree that he is though because that would make me agnostic too.

No, actually what Dawkins has tried to do is co-opt Agnostics into his world view to boost the apparent numbers of Atheists to support his agenda.

So don't bother posting his little Atheist<------>Theist chart as I have seen it already and only illustrates his own bias of thought regarding how others define their beliefs.

You may be interested to know that I support the RDFRS, we donated to several of their fund-raisers and specifically this:

http://givingaid.richarddawkins.net/

but the real issue is that the above is the exception and not the rule, without religions, the charitable giving globally would be a fraction of what it is today.

Can religion be used for evil and despicable things, of course. However it can also be used for some of the most charitable and worthy humanitarian deed this world has ever seen.

 

[semi-pro waster]

Also, feel free to check out the Prison religious demographics of the USA:

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

I'm not sure on this but doesn't stating that you've "found" religion in prison offer certain benefits in terms of time to pursue your faith as well as suggesting to the parole board that your faith will help you steer clear of future crime? Not to cast doubt on the religious fervour of the prisoners here but I'd not be inclined to take it totally at face value - there may be more than one reason for statistics. There's always the potential that religion and criminality are inextricably linked, I'm just not banking on it mind.

FYI Richard Dawkins has always claimed that he is Agnostic.

I dont agree that he is though because that would make me agnostic too.

I don't think that Richard Dawkins is agnostic in any meaningful sense of the word, he is to all intents and purposes atheist based on his stated opinions except that he doesn't quite want to admit it is also a faith based position.