Overwatch
- Thread starter Tejstar
- Start date
I don't agree at all.
If you have a really bad team, you can be the best player ever and it's still very unlikely you're going to win. I've had matches where I've had 3 or 4 golds and we've still been slaughtered.
Likewise if you're a terrible player, or your team is really good, you can play bad and be carried.
That's 2/3rds of games right there.
And the other 1/3rd is where your skill as a player has the most impact, when both teams are playing well. But that little impact really isn't going to take you from 2,000 to 2,500, or at least not in most cases.
Just my take on it anyway
You're probably right, but I don't really care personally. I play competetive because I find it much more enjoyable than quick play. On the whole I find most games quite balanced, I actually get to enjoy whole games rather than the whole of the other team leaving after loosing a round as often happens in quick play, and there is the limit on only one of each hero type.
Also, I don't really care that much about my rank. Sure it would be nice if it goes up, but I just play competitive as its more fun. Don't take that to mean I don't try, I do, but I just want to enjoy the game.
Soldato
- Joined
- 14 Mar 2011
- Posts
- 5,456
To be fair they also seem to have factored in things like this...
For instance yesterday I joined a game on Volskaya as part of a 6-man pre-made I don't normally play with (so we're not as used to working as a team)... We got absolutely destroyed, failed to cap the first point or even come close and then the other team completely steam-rolled us in less than a minute. It was awful, but I didn't seem to lose much rank for it (compared to games which have gone on right down to the wire and felt fairly evenly matched, but still a loss in the end) - anybody else find that?
For instance yesterday I joined a game on Volskaya as part of a 6-man pre-made I don't normally play with (so we're not as used to working as a team)... We got absolutely destroyed, failed to cap the first point or even come close and then the other team completely steam-rolled us in less than a minute. It was awful, but I didn't seem to lose much rank for it (compared to games which have gone on right down to the wire and felt fairly evenly matched, but still a loss in the end) - anybody else find that?
Soldato
- Joined
- 15 Sep 2006
- Posts
- 4,991
- Location
- Liverpool
If the enemy team has a higher mmr than your team, you will lose less if you lose and gain more if you win. And vice versa if your team is higher than the enemy. It's the same in pretty much every single MMR based matchmaking system.
If this was true, good players don't exist. That's what you're saying. Pro's don't exist, master tier players don't exist. Everyone is 2000 MMR and that's the end of it. People don't carry themselves up because they're reliant on their team.
Unfortunately what you're saying is objectively incorrect, and has been proven incorrect in every team based competitive game in existence. Good players will carry themselves up to their true rank relatively quickly, within 100-200 games. After so many games, everyone finds their rank and stays there until they improve as a player. A professional player (carnage being the one I watched do this recently) will play on a second account and reach master tier in 2 or 3 days. Even if he gets placed 2500 initially. He will win 80-90% of his games until he is 3500 MMR.
Now I know you're going to say "well we can't all be pros" but those guys are just the extreme end of the scale. They are proof of how the system works. Sure, I'm not pro. But I know for a fact I'm good enough to get to diamond every season even if I was placed in the 2000 bracket after every placement.
If you think you're stuck and can't carry, it's just because you are at your current skill level. I guarantee if your rank suddenly dropped 1000 points down, after 100-200 games you would be back to your current rank. Because that's your skill. It WILL go up as you improve.
What I read in this thread is the exact same story I've been reading about League of Legends for the past 5 years.
If this was true, good players don't exist. That's what you're saying. Pro's don't exist, master tier players don't exist. Everyone is 2000 MMR and that's the end of it. People don't carry themselves up because they're reliant on their team.
Unfortunately what you're saying is objectively incorrect, and has been proven incorrect in every team based competitive game in existence. Good players will carry themselves up to their true rank relatively quickly, within 100-200 games. After so many games, everyone finds their rank and stays there until they improve as a player. A professional player (carnage being the one I watched do this recently) will play on a second account and reach master tier in 2 or 3 days. Even if he gets placed 2500 initially. He will win 80-90% of his games until he is 3500 MMR.
Now I know you're going to say "well we can't all be pros" but those guys are just the extreme end of the scale. They are proof of how the system works. Sure, I'm not pro. But I know for a fact I'm good enough to get to diamond every season even if I was placed in the 2000 bracket after every placement.
If you think you're stuck and can't carry, it's just because you are at your current skill level. I guarantee if your rank suddenly dropped 1000 points down, after 100-200 games you would be back to your current rank. Because that's your skill. It WILL go up as you improve.
What I read in this thread is the exact same story I've been reading about League of Legends for the past 5 years.
Last edited:
Associate
- Joined
- 21 Jun 2011
- Posts
- 1,448
I agree with your assessment of competitive, but not the conclusion. The point of playing Comp (over QP) is that you have the 1-hero limit, generally more objective-focused teams and you build currency towards show-off gold weapons, and it's for people who enjoy that setup.
For some people, that's enough to make it more fun (i.e. the cheese strats, hero-stacking and silliness in QP is more of a turn-off).
Quick Play has the same matchmaking in the background, but just not the publicly shown ranks, so you still have the team lottery.
Personally, I find QP more fun most of the time, but I can see the fun in ranked and do play it occasionally. I guess what I'm saying is "there's no point playing ranked because you feel you 'need' a particular ranking. The only point in playing it is because it's more fun for you."
I think you've mis-read what he said, or are possibly prone to hyperbole. I think he's saying one's personal skill only has a measurable outcome in ~1/3 of games. This would mean you do (over a large number of games) gravitate towards your correct rank (which is exactly what you've described). It also means that over a short number of games (e.g. an evening's play) it can feel very arbitrary (which is exactly what he's described). You aren't actually in disagreement. The only area I can see where you differ is him saying your personal skill being better than your current rank means you win somewhere between 50% and 67% of the time (33% by team plus >17%, <33% by skill) whereas you claim it to be 80-90% of games. That is literally the only discrepancy I can see.
Last edited:
Yes, but why was he ranked at 2500 initially? A pro playing with us lot may well carry a team. I would also bet he would lose a few because we're that bad and he couldn't, even a pro, carry the team.
Yes, so it works with someone at the extreme end. It should.
I don't think anyone is saying it doesn't work. If I'm really 2700 and I'm at 2400, after 100 games I will get up there. That's not carrying though is it. 100 games?!?!
Chances are, if I'm better than my rank, maybe I win 65 of the 100. That's far from carrying my team each time. That's basically what was suggested that you only really make the difference in about a third of your games. Not every game as you suggest. If it was every game, I would never lose if I'm better than my rank
I think maybe what you think is 'carrying' is different to what we think of 'carrying'.
Somehow missed this before I posted, but totally agree. I think both are basically correct and both to me say you can't 'carry' your team if you're roughly at the right skill/rank.
Did enjoy watching some of Tviq's games yesterday in I think a duo queue rather than his standard 3/4 stack. Stuck down with quite a few diamonds vs multiple master players. He got pretty damn frustrated.
It's a hell of a lot harder to carry a game in overwatch compared to other competitive games. The amount of pros that refuse to play solo is probably a testament to that too.
It's a hell of a lot harder to carry a game in overwatch compared to other competitive games. The amount of pros that refuse to play solo is probably a testament to that too.
Associate
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2015
- Posts
- 49
- Location
- Edinburgh
This is total nonsense. Every other day I read a post like this of yours on this thread and it's utter mince. I get that it's good to go into games with that positive mindset but it's not how this works. It's like a footballer saying, "I'm awesome, I'm going to go out on that pitch and score 9 goals and carry my team to legendary glory because the rest of the team and opposing team don't matter and won't actually have any impact on the game anyway"...
You as an individual player are merely one piece of a twelve piece jigsaw and there is only a certain amount of influence one can have over the actual outcome of the match, regardless of how good a player you think you are.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 15 Sep 2006
- Posts
- 4,991
- Location
- Liverpool
Because 10 placement games isn't enough to place someone even remotely accurately. Especially if they don't have a season 1 rank.
I finished 6 wins, 4 losses. Quite pleased with that and finished 2275 (or something similar). Certainly better than me 3-7 (or whatever it was) in season 1.
Given that 1 loss was the leaver and 1 was the new map that I realised I'd not played yet and I was terrible on, I'm fairly happy to manage 6-2 over the other games. Using our formula of the thirds, my third was terrible once (lost) and good the others (wins).
Given that 1 loss was the leaver and 1 was the new map that I realised I'd not played yet and I was terrible on, I'm fairly happy to manage 6-2 over the other games. Using our formula of the thirds, my third was terrible once (lost) and good the others (wins).
Finally got to diamond (3061) after solo queuing up from 2400. Getting out of gold/platinum hell is partly a crapshoot, but there are things you can do to increase your chances.
My tips are:
-Get good with multiple classes and fill in whatever the team needs. If you pick first, prepare for someone else to take the 3rd DPS, or pick a troll class just to spite. Just suck it up and pick last if you want to move up.
-Think about which classes work well together. If you have an ana on your team be more likely to pick reinhart, or if you have a reaper then be more likely to use mcree/soldier as second dps to give your team aerial/ranged coverage.
-Switch classes mid game ASAP when you see your counter dominating, or see a class that needs to be countered. If they have a genji then stop ****ing about as roadhog. Switch to winston and destroy him. Ofc if your ult is almost ready then wait for it first, but if it's at 50-60% then it's probably not worth it.
-Use mic and call out flankers, ults, etc, even if the rest of the team is silent.
-Always move as a team. Resist the urge to frag hunt by chasing down people alone. Giving away the first pick may seem inconsequential, but by feeding the enemies ults you are creating a snowball effect.
-If you have someone who insta picks hanzo on attack, bastion, etc, then if you are shady you can quit the game right at the start and avoid any loss of rank. I haven't done this myself as I am a man of honour, but until Blizzard fix the early leaver system then bailing is in your best interests.
-Take a break if you are on a losing streak and feeling tilted (it's been proven that you gain more SR with consecutive wins, and lose more with consecutive losses, so be sure to capitalise on good runs).
You will encounter a huge amount of toxicity, especially at 2600 or lower. I try to avoid this as best as possible by switching region to Americas once the kids get out of school here. Ping really isn't that noticible in this game so it's a no brainer for me.
I think it's possible for anyone with a solid grasp of tactics and teamplay to get out of gold/plat hell, even without friends. These skills are all learnable. Unless you have literally the most potato aim possible then you have no excuse.
My tips are:
-Get good with multiple classes and fill in whatever the team needs. If you pick first, prepare for someone else to take the 3rd DPS, or pick a troll class just to spite. Just suck it up and pick last if you want to move up.
-Think about which classes work well together. If you have an ana on your team be more likely to pick reinhart, or if you have a reaper then be more likely to use mcree/soldier as second dps to give your team aerial/ranged coverage.
-Switch classes mid game ASAP when you see your counter dominating, or see a class that needs to be countered. If they have a genji then stop ****ing about as roadhog. Switch to winston and destroy him. Ofc if your ult is almost ready then wait for it first, but if it's at 50-60% then it's probably not worth it.
-Use mic and call out flankers, ults, etc, even if the rest of the team is silent.
-Always move as a team. Resist the urge to frag hunt by chasing down people alone. Giving away the first pick may seem inconsequential, but by feeding the enemies ults you are creating a snowball effect.
-If you have someone who insta picks hanzo on attack, bastion, etc, then if you are shady you can quit the game right at the start and avoid any loss of rank. I haven't done this myself as I am a man of honour, but until Blizzard fix the early leaver system then bailing is in your best interests.
-Take a break if you are on a losing streak and feeling tilted (it's been proven that you gain more SR with consecutive wins, and lose more with consecutive losses, so be sure to capitalise on good runs).
You will encounter a huge amount of toxicity, especially at 2600 or lower. I try to avoid this as best as possible by switching region to Americas once the kids get out of school here. Ping really isn't that noticible in this game so it's a no brainer for me.
I think it's possible for anyone with a solid grasp of tactics and teamplay to get out of gold/plat hell, even without friends. These skills are all learnable. Unless you have literally the most potato aim possible then you have no excuse.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 14 Mar 2011
- Posts
- 5,456
I agree... I think in general it's players who gravitate towards DPS who seem to think that they have so much weight in a match; DPS are meant to get high damage, high eliminations and so it's to be expected that the few DPS players on the team will get a couple of medals and seem as though they are doing the most work for the team... They'll be on the cards with "50%+ kill participation" or "best kill streak" etc. and yes, it's an important role; you'll certainly notice when your team's DPS aren't doing their job...
But the games where as a DPS hero you feel like you're really kicking ass are often much more enabled by the tanks + supports on your team than you realise. A friend of mine records a lot of our games and sticks them on Youtube for fun and the amount of times I've thought I had an absolutely kickass game as Pharah, only to watch his footage and see that he was right there behind me discord-ing and firing orbs at almost every single target I engaged, and saving me so many more times than I was aware of during the game...
Last edited:
Associate
- Joined
- 1 Jun 2016
- Posts
- 486
- Location
- Cambridge
Hi. I'm up for grouping up. What's you're ID?
Soldato
- Joined
- 15 Sep 2006
- Posts
- 4,991
- Location
- Liverpool
I thought that was a standalone question.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 30 Jul 2013
- Posts
- 30,523
I think that's all good advice.
I do disagree with Scott that you can carry a whole team if you are skilled enough.
It's unlikely you will ever get placed with 5 complete idiots, but when you have 4 DPS that refuse to switch when you desperate need another tank or healer, you aren't going to be able to do much even if you are the best player in the World.
I hate people who claim they can't play any other character
The "I have 70 hours on Hanzo" brigade.
That's fine, and I'm sure they are good with Hanzo, but when that team needs a Reinhardt or Lucio at that moment then that player is worse than useless.
I've even had games where I have been the only Tank, and had 5 DPS teammates. When you point out the team really could do with a healer, i've even had people say "Why don't you swap"
BECAUSE THEN WE WOULD HAVE NO TANK YOU IDIOTS!
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 15 Sep 2006
- Posts
- 4,991
- Location
- Liverpool
I'm not saying every game is winnable. Definitely not.
I'm just saying there's no such thing as "elo hell". The only reason you're stuck at your current rank is because that's your skill limit. It's nothing to do with "un/lucky teammates" in the long term. They are short term, temporary obstacles.
I think people just get frustrated that they're not climbing after 20 games and blame the system.
I'm just saying there's no such thing as "elo hell". The only reason you're stuck at your current rank is because that's your skill limit. It's nothing to do with "un/lucky teammates" in the long term. They are short term, temporary obstacles.
I think people just get frustrated that they're not climbing after 20 games and blame the system.
