Pay rises

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 11:42

I know this is a tricky one, but how do you guys go about it. I don't feel like I'm getting paid my worth as we have taken on a lot of management roles, partially due to agile. I'm looking at other jobs, so don't know whether to use the old threaten to leave (but only works if there is another job to go to). My thoughts were to mention I'm going to job interviews and see what happens. I'm a bit miffed as a guy does the same work as me (although has different job title), and has gone from 10% less than me to 10% more without really having to do much extra (some of which I did most of the work in the project he's managing!) This isn't meant to sound whiney but it probably does

. All replies welcome. For reference he has about 2 years experience to my 10 (in this job, 20 total), but he has a phd but I only have a hnc (although i am part way through a degree)..

Rids · 5 Jul 2021 at 11:53

First instance?

Ask for one.

Have a case prepared as to why you think you're worth more, and then go to your boss and say 'I want to have a discussion about pay, I don't think I'm being fairly compensated' and then spell out your case.

If they say yes, then great, all sorted. If they say no, then you can move onto the next steps such as getting another offer and handing in your notice and seeing if they'll match.

Kenai · 5 Jul 2021 at 11:53

2 primary routes to getting more money

1 - find another job paying more money, hand in notice, then either leave for that better job or accept a counter offer.
2 - draw together a list of positive reasons why you deserve more money, approach your manager with this and ask to have a discussion about your compensation.

Both have pros and cons - 1 isn't ideal if you don't really want to leave, as you need to be prepared for them to wave you goodbye but it is the most concrete reflection of you being worth money, as someone else has offered it. 2 is a bit more woolly and easier for a manager to ignore but has less risk for you if you don't really want to leave.

It's also easier to try 2, then fall back to 1 if you're still not happy with the outcome.

Whatever you do, avoid simply complaining that others get more than you, focus on why you are worth more than what you currently get paid. It does sound whiny to your boss if your reasoning boils down to 'but he gets more than me'.

I did this recently, focused on high value projects successfully delivered, highlighted savings i had made beyond those expected from my role, extra responsibilities I was taking on to help the department run better, improvements to systems and processes etc.

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 11:56

Thanks for the response. Some good ideas. I'll start making a list. When you say first instance, do you mean asking for one? In which case yes, however I've been doing the same job for 10 years and we used to get individual pay rises, however at the start of the year there was just a generic one for everyone.

glenimp617 · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:01

Very easy. Take on more responsibility.

Talk to your line manager and/or get involved with work done by someone higher up. Then after a year, simply say now you are doing XYZ you'd like to negotiate your salary.

I see a lot of people want money before they take on extra work. I'm the opposite way round. It's worked for me anyway.

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:04

I did ask for more responsibility but he was a bit wishy washy and said wait till the end of the degree :rolleyes:

. I'm currently managing several smaller projects, which ironically is more than the other guy is doing.

dlockers · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:06

Do you feel you have stagnated, or are you happy in role? I ask because 10 years in role is a lot (in my industry at least).

At this stage I'd be saying I am feeling undervalued/underpaid and not being recognised for experience, maturity and stability in role. Young chappy may be on a trajectory which is why he is getting more fun tokens than you.

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:10

dLockers said:
Do you feel you have stagnated, or are you happy in role? I ask because 10 years in role is a lot (in my industry at least).

At this stage I'd be saying I am feeling undervalued/underpaid and not being recognised for experience, maturity and stability in role. Young chappy may be on a trajectory which is why he is getting more fun tokens than you.

Yes I think that's it. I'm at a point where everything is a bit old hat. Naa it can't be his maturity :cry:

.

peterwalkley · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:21

Don't ever mention you are going to a job interview - that's putting a target on your own back

Threaten to leave only works when you have a firm offer (or offers) in your hand.

Unless the other guys' PhD is directly relevant to your day to day work, I'd be sure your extra years on the job are far more useful - so don't let the difference in your academic qualifications put you off.

Biggest pay rises come with job moves to another company. Internal promotions give you the barest minimum they think they can get away with, or even the "fake promotion" where you get a load of extra responsibilities, BS job title and no extra money.

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:22

peterwalkley said:
Don't ever mention you are going to a job interview - that's putting a target on your own back Threaten to leave only works when you have a firm offer (or offers) in your hand.

Unless the other guys' PhD is directly relevant to your day to day work, I'd be sure your extra years on the job are far more useful - so don't let the difference in your academic qualifications put you off.

Biggest pay rises come with job moves to another company. Internal promotions give you the barest minimum they think they can get away with, or even the "fake promotion" where you get a load of extra responsibilities, BS job title and no extra money.

Yes that's what I've found. It would put a target on my back as we're far more valuable, we're currently understaffed so gives me more bargaining power.

dlockers · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:39

theone8181 said:
Yes I think that's it. I'm at a point where everything is a bit old hat. Naa it can't be his maturity.

I'd take a serious think then. When I offer more cash to people in similar situations, I typically expect them to keep playing mother-hen and stay where they are. It has happened in the past that I've secured a raise and then chappy has shot off to another department leaving me holding the embarrassment bag for sticking my neck out, and then he has left anyway.

Change in role, more responsibility, may be more what you are after and how the discussion should go?

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:41

dLockers said:
I'd take a serious think then. When I offer more cash to people in similar situations, I typically expect them to keep playing mother-hen and stay where they are. It has happened in the past that I've secured a raise and then chappy has shot off to another department leaving me holding the embarrassment bag for sticking my neck out, and then he has left anyway.

Change in role, more responsibility, may be more what you are after and how the discussion should go?

That's the route I'm going down. Do figures ever get mentioned, I've just listed reasonable pay rise.

dlockers · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:50

theone8181 said:
That's the route I'm going down. Do figures ever get mentioned, I've just listed reasonable pay rise.

I would set a figure to make expectations clear. I had a colleague fight for a mega pay rise and the firm offered him £5k one off and if he quit within 12 months, had to pay it back pro-rata. He was after around that but not as a one-off with a penalty clause!

What would be meaningful for you and reasonable for the firm? Market is hot at the moment. Depending on the size of your firm as well, it may already have guidance/tramlines for such circumstances.

10% is substantial - is this a one off you want whilst you find another role in the same company? 3% is realistic, but is that enough to make this topic go away? Do you have regular performance reviews to manage your expectations on when this could happen? Odds are the firm will tie any pay increase to your degree - what is that timeline looking like? Are they paying for the degree?

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:53

I'm funding degree myself, although they gave me 2 days off fir exams. I'd like 5-10%, I don't see that as being unreasonable. Preferably as salary rather than on off as we get quarterly bonuses

. 5-10% would be 1500-3000 (currently on just under 36k, so not exactly poor pay but I'd like more).

Martynt74 · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:54

I think i'd just look at pay for similar roles through indeed and use that. If you then go armed with some evidence of your "market rate" to your manager you at least have some proof to justify your request. My old manager always just said that to me when it came to annual appraisals, he spoke to a few recruiters to get a feel for the current rate and then use that for justification for any raises.

It may also show you're actually paid fairly for the role and so any requests could be tricky.

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 12:55

The difficulty is that the title is senior technician, however we end up doing to actual measurements rather than just setting stuff up. I'm not sure there are similar roles in the country, and unless it's in the same area not sure how valid they would be. For the degree, I'm waiting on results for year 2, assuming all OK that would be another 2 years before it's finished.

dlockers · 5 Jul 2021 at 13:08

It sounds like you are "technically" performing two roles then, i.e. to replace you would mean two roles need creating and staffing. I'd use this in your opening gambit.

I would start the chat by saying how uncomfortable this is (acknowledge this - it is uncomfortable for everyone because that is our culture) because your loyalty has typically been rewarded fairly and you have never had to have a discussion like this - however the cost of living isn't going down, and you feel your being undervalued in that you are 1) mature in role [experience], and 2) would like to continue doing what you are doing [loyalty], but your hand may be forced if something substantial doesn't come a) now, and b) when you get your degree.

Your expectation is in the low double digits, and you feel this would bring yourself into line with the low end of the market but until you have the degree you are being realistic.

dlockers · 5 Jul 2021 at 13:12

Also, and it may be obvious, but your line manager will be/will have gone through exactly the same process you are right now. So feel free to bounce ideas off of them like it "isn't their problem" - i.e. "when you felt undervalued/underpaid, what did you do?"; "did you go directly to HR or did you get your boss to vouch for you?".

I find openness about the awkwardness and recognition, for lack of a better phrase, that we all put our underpants on the morning, makes this a lot more of a positive experience. Even the CEO will have the same problem.

theone8181 · 5 Jul 2021 at 13:17

Will have to see on that one. Not sure if he decides on them or not.

HangTime · 5 Jul 2021 at 13:21

TheOracle said:
Very easy. Take on more responsibility.

Talk to your line manager and/or get involved with work done by someone higher up. Then after a year, simply say now you are doing XYZ you'd like to negotiate your salary.

I see a lot of people want money before they take on extra work. I'm the opposite way round. It's worked for me anyway.

From what he's said though he has taken on more responsibility already. I think it varies a lot between organisations and generally how they are performing; generally my experience hasn't been great in terms of seeing additional responsibility adequately compensated. Ignoring my first job where I started on £10k/year I don't think I've ever received more than a 5% rise that hasn't been associated with a promotion. One of the reasons I quit my last job was due to inflationary rises despite having 4x the number of perm employees under me, expanding into a satellite office, successfully developing multiple staff (including creation of 3 management roles underneath me), taking ownership of more critical systems etc to the extent that the 'before and after' comparison of my responsibilities was quite stark. The problem with taking on extra responsibility for a whole year before any negotiation is you might get a mediocre raise at the end of it and that's a whole year of extra responsibility you've worked without being compensated for it.

When it comes to the negotiation make sure you have all your evidence lined up to make it easy for the line manager to present the case to decision makers (if they agree) - this means benchmarking against market rates, clearly and succinctly articulated reasons why your role has changed and what value you are adding etc. Tread carefully when it comes to making direct comparisons with a colleague though, this should be about "why I am worth more money" not "why does XYZ earn more than me".