Pay rises

[HangTime]

Will have to see on that one. Not sure if he decides on them or not.

In my experience line managers often don't have discretion to award large pay rises, this was something I was a bit naive about when I was younger. My last place, I was putting forward pay rises for people two levels below me to my boss (a Director), and even he couldn't just approve these, it had to go through HR and the CIO (divisional head).

Place before that, I think there was a cap of 5%, anything more needed exec approval.

 

[theone8181]

Gav I’m feeling very undervalued in the role that I am currently in. I’ve always worked over the weekends when needed to ensure that work has been completed, and I’ve never turned work down when it’s required. I’ve assisted production in times of need and with agile along with the change requests that I’m managing (all of which are progressing nicely). I’ve also helped the various individuals in the department when needed (especially students). I also manage a large amount of the calibration/maintenance on pieces of equipment that need checking. I have also spent a lot of time ensuring the 100ix room downstairs is up to scratch for when we hand over to production.

I feel that it warrants a reasonable pay-rise (5-10%) for the extra responsibility/managing work that is being done, along with the many years of experience I have acquired. I did toy with the idea of change and applying for the applications engineer job, I still might if it comes back up.


Thanks


Chris


That's what I've drafted so far. Still need to bulk it out a bit.

 

[Kenai]

Don't email it, talk to him!

If you must email it, don't just fire in there with 'i'm feeling very undervalued', soften the intro a bit and say you want to have a discussion about your pay / package etc.

On a second note, the stuff you list out, I don't know your job but i'm not sure how much of that is above and beyond or noteworthy? "I've helped people in the department" - who doesn't help people? That's too vague and substance-less IMO, you want to be going with facts and figures as far as possible. How much money have you made them? or saved them? How much time have you saved? What have you done, nailed down, measurable, that says "I'm worth more than this" to them? Things like working weekends should be a sweetener at the end rather than your leading line.

If you've delivered your last 5 projects under budget, point that out. If you've been smashing your KPIs, mention that. Tangible measures of good performance, not vague comments about "I've helped out production a lot".

The last line comes off a bit of an 'or else' threat too, i'd leave that be if it were me, depending on what sort of response you get. Especially when it's an internal change, it's often all too easy for people to sabotage your move before you even make it if they feel you're not playing fair.

 

[dlockers]

I'd temper a bit - you don't want to give him a heart attack;

Gav

As you know I'm a company man and have always been happy to go above and beyond the role. I am however starting to feel a little undervalued. From some initial glances at various job sites, I think the market rate for my unique collection of skills has overtaken what I am being paid, and my loyalty and experience isn't being appropriately taken into account. I would like to discuss whether we can work together to agree a reasonable pay rise (5-10%) with a view to correcting this?

I've listed some of the key highlights that we can use to talk to HR/big boss man:
* Weekend work
* Willingness to be challenged and take on new workloads
* Cross-department work and upskilling other individuals
...


Be careful that your list isn't read as you are the dogs body who does anything anyone else can't be bothered to do. E.g. machine calibration - do you have a machine calibration man who is just bone idol? In those instances you may be offered to relinquish some of the tasks rather than get more cash

Edit: Conclude on something like, let me know if you agree or if there is a best way to handle this. It opens it up for him to say crack on with your look elsewhere (confirms you are not valued ) or a strategy to help you that will lead to 'SMART' action points.

 

[theone8181]

I'd temper a bit - you don't want to give him a heart attack;

Gav

As you know I'm a company man and have always been happy to go above and beyond the role. I am however starting to feel a little undervalued. From some initial glances at various job sites, I think the market rate for my unique collection of skills has overtaken what I am being paid, and my loyalty and experience isn't being appropriately taken into account. I would like to discuss whether we can work together to agree a reasonable pay rise (5-10%) with a view to correcting this?

I've listed some of the key highlights that we can use to talk to HR/big boss man:
* Weekend work
* Willingness to be challenged and take on new workloads
* Cross-department work and upskilling other individuals
...


Be careful that your list isn't read as you are the dogs body who does anything anyone else can't be bothered to do. E.g. machine calibration - do you have a machine calibration man who is just bone idol? In those instances you may be offered to relinquish some of the tasks rather than get more cash

Edit: Conclude on something like, let me know if you agree or if there is a best way to handle this. It opens it up for him to say crack on with your look elsewhere (confirms you are not valued ) or a strategy to help you that will lead to 'SMART' action points.

That is some good writing . We don't have a calibration department, although I believe we should do just to the sheer volume. The helping out bit was more of a going above and beyond to show people the ropes. The projects I've managed are small changes requests as well call them. We do have kpis, but they are ******** so aren't really relevant I.e. one of them is returning a system within 2 weeks which is easy when people don't ask you to do a months worth of testing.

 

[dlockers]

That is some good writing . We don't have a calibration department, although I believe we should do just to the sheer volume. The helping out bit was more of a going above and beyond to show people the ropes. The projects I've managed are small changes requests as well call them. We do have kpis, but they are ******** so aren't really relevant I.e. one of them is returning a system within 2 weeks which is easy when people don't ask you to do a months worth of testing.

I think this is where your 'hot skills' lay. You are multi-disciplined and understand the processes/standard operating procedures (at a detail level) of supporting and adjacent business functions. In my world, we would class you as an insurance policy should a departments lottery kitty hit the jackpot

Your point RE: KPIs, you probably need to get to grips with this a bit. If you are genuinely measured on these but the actual measures are impossible then you should (potentially in your SMART action plan to get your payrise) be proposing better measures. E.g. you can be measured on a 2 week turnaround, but you'll be implementing a control that lets you sign off what is a reasonable request. You can then explain the impact of the 2 week turnaround KPI not being hit by the number of times you've had to "push back".

When I was in level 1 IT support my colleague didn't log anything, so when it came to end of year performance reviews he was put at risk. I on the other hand logged the crap out of everything, as mundane as it was. I could point to the 200 password resets I'd done, and then build a case to offshore this to lower cost resources... I was then tasked with the process and controls for them to do this abroad... you get the idea. The increased responsibility comes naturally but you need to remind them to keep paying you more!

 

[randomshenans]

I'd 100% talk to this in person, but you could send an email to sort it and just have something like:

Gav,

I'd really like to find some time this week to meet to discuss my current role. It has organically changed fairly dramatically in the past 12 months and I'd love to discuss this in more detail with you. When are you free for us to discuss?

 

[dowie]

I know this is a tricky one, but how do you guys go about it. I don't feel like I'm getting paid my worth as we have taken on a lot of management roles, partially due to agile.

Typically in an annual review, you get given a pay rise then you can just fight them* over it, and sometimes they go away and come back with a better figure (most people don't bother to do this and just accept what they're given).

The other time is when you get more responsibilities as you've mentioned, though if these are ad hoc rather than an explicit promotion/change of job title/role etc.. then they're perhaps things you could mention as positives when asking constructively for more pay. (including achievements etc..)

*fight them constructively that is - citing stuff you've delivered/achieved etc...

I'm looking at other jobs, so don't know whether to use the old threaten to leave (but only works if there is another job to go to). My thoughts were to mention I'm going to job interviews and see what happens.

NO!!!!

Don't do that as an initial approach, it isn't constructive especially if it just comes out of the blue, you should raise this with them well before you get to the point where you're potentially handing in your notice.

Your pay rise should be a request based on what you've done, your achievements etc.. don't worry about the other guy, you could however look at (and cite) salary surveys** etc.. if you think you're underpaid relative to the market for your role but don't start mentioning leaving or make threats etc.. it should be about what you contribute, the work you've done etc..

** really they have more info than you though and ought to be well aware if you're paid below market rates

Also:

Don't email it, talk to him!

^^^ this.

The e-mail should be a short one requesting a meeting (I guess maybe Covid might mess with this so it could be a telephone call or zoom meeting), prepare for what you're going to say etc.. but you should lay it out in a constructive discussion during the meeting itself rather than just dumping it all in an e-mail and pressing send. you want to cite things you've achieved, things where you've gone above and beyond your responsibilities etc..

As for applying elsewhere, no real harm in that if you do it discretely, even if you're not fussed about leaving it is useful to get an idea of how easily you could get a job elsewhere, what you're worth to the market etc.. Quite good to have stuff in the pipeline, if they do fob you off on pay then being able to move quickly is nice.

 

[theone8181]

Good points, sorry when I say kpis, there are some but they're not related to our jobs in any way.

 

[dowie]

I'm funding degree myself, although they gave me 2 days off fir exams. I'd like 5-10%, I don't see that as being unreasonable. Preferably as salary rather than on off as we get quarterly bonuses. 5-10% would be 1500-3000 (currently on just under 36k, so not exactly poor pay but I'd like more).

I'd not necessarily bring this up in the first instance but if you get a pay rise at the lower end of your range (like only 5%) AND if you want to stick around there then bring up the degree, ask them if they could cover the tuition fees.

There was a techie at a place I worked at with a desk full of folders from training courses for example, these things were 2k a pop and he loved doing them so he'd often be pacified with yet more training courses at his annual review. Training is often a separate budget so this might be worth an ask if they wanted to pay you more but are constrained in terms of how much they're allowed to give you.

Obvs cash is king and doesn't have the risk of them trying to lock you in with deals like "We'll pay for your degree but you must commit to staying here for X time or it's a loan you need to pay back" so push for the cash first.

 

[HangTime]

From some initial glances at various job sites, I think the market rate for my unique collection of skills has overtaken what I am being paid

Playing devil's advocate here, but if I received this my first question would be "If your collection of skills is unique, how do you know what the market rate is?". It just sounds contradictory. Be careful using words like "unique", it smacks of hyperbole so you better be able to back it up

 

[HangTime]

Your point RE: KPIs, you probably need to get to grips with this a bit. If you are genuinely measured on these but the actual measures are impossible then you should (potentially in your SMART action plan to get your payrise) be proposing better measures. E.g. you can be measured on a 2 week turnaround, but you'll be implementing a control that lets you sign off what is a reasonable request. You can then explain the impact of the 2 week turnaround KPI not being hit by the number of times you've had to "push back".

Definitely. You could have a problem marching in and demanding a pay rise if your manager is going to need to justify this against a backdrop of you failing to hit objectives. It's no good having KPIs and then bemoaning them for being rubbish, you need to work on making them fit for purpose, or at a minimum during your objective setting make sure you include written caveats (calling out dependencies etc) so you are not making excuses come appraisal time but instead referring back to these points already made. The last time I had objectives set, there was one cascaded target relating to changing the contract model for suppliers that I had no confidence in hitting, so I refined the wording to ensure I'd have sufficient wiggle room whilst still adhering to the overall ethos of what it was driving towards (cost savings).

 

[theone8181]

Definitely. You could have a problem marching in and demanding a pay rise if your manager is going to need to justify this against a backdrop of you failing to hit objectives. It's no good having KPIs and then bemoaning them for being rubbish, you need to work on making them fit for purpose, or at a minimum during your objective setting make sure you include written caveats (calling out dependencies etc) so you are not making excuses come appraisal time but instead referring back to these points already made. The last time I had objectives set, there was one cascaded target relating to changing the contract model for suppliers that I had no confidence in hitting, so I refined the wording to ensure I'd have sufficient wiggle room whilst still adhering to the overall ethos of what it was driving towards (cost savings).

I see what you're getting at, but I've had a look at our intranet site and kpis aren't even on there anymore (we've also had a reshuffle of departments recently so that might be why). I'm not doing a very good job of explaining this, but it's r and d with lasers so most jobs tend to be unique and as such there aren't really any performance metrics to go off. Unique skills probably isn't to far off, as there isn't a market rate for what I do.

 

[malachi]

I really like to know where HR get this idea they are paying the market rate

I had an conversation with my HR person last week about me moving on. She said they are paying me the market rate. I told them over the past few months I have had interviews with different companies, when they asked my salary expectations and I said X, none of them came back, said it was too much and I continued onto the next interview stage with all of them.

Their response was "oh, we cant pay you that much as we don't have the budget" Really now!?!!? So you do know the market rate, you just choose to not pay it. Which is fine, that officially gave me a reason not to stick around.

 

[theone8181]

I suppose I can always ask and the worst answer will be a no.