Paying a garage to fix a problem and having the problem come back

Conanius said:
I think give them another chance to fix at their expense.

If no joy, any ideas how muffin is placed for a full/partial refund ?
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Think it's worth just giving him a call to let him know see if he does anything up front.

RE: refund of travel costs... not sure how to approach that. I think if I want to sort it with someone else then I need to let that someone else know that it'll be paid for by the original garage and I can press for compensation of travel costs, I wouldn't bother with lost time. Depends if it's done willingly or not, not that I'm exactly looking forward to the oncoming conversation :p
 
On Friday I took the car to Castle Coombe for a track day, I did two 15 min sessions before I got a knocking noise from the engine. The car was turned off then towed back to the garage where I’ve had all work done. This is the summary of the inspection:


  • No3 rod big end bearing has spun inside rod housing
  • Spun bearing the crankshaft has suffered excess wear/damage to the journal
  • The remaining big end bearings have been inspected and all show signs of “pick up/oil starvation”
  • The main bearings on journals 2,3 and 4 (1 and 5 have not been looked at)– same here, pick up/wear through oil starvation.
  • No3 big end bearing which spun has shed lots of material through the motor so all oil passageways will need to be thoroughly cleaned out and quite possibly a new oil pump required (won’t know until pump removed and stripped for inspection of gears).
  • Possible damage to the top of the piston and underside of cylinder head – head can normally be cleaned up but piston would need thorough inspection.

A replacement crankshaft and conrod are the instant requirements for repair/rebuild along with gaskets and bearings etc of course but other items such as piston, oil pump would not be known until full strip is performed.

*As a side note, the first thing we did was check the oil level – halfway between min and max was showing on the dipstick. This is not enough for track work (We always recommend running a good 3-5mm over the max mark for peace of mind) especially at places like Castle Combe with it’s right/left/right through the first chicane and old paddock bend. This is the highest likelihood area of the track for oil surge/starvation issues.
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The car had a full dipstick mark of oil the day before. The trip there was 20 miles, two 15min sessions and then the in lap to the carpark where it then didn't move. I then with a person there (has the same engine and knows them well) tried to diagnose the issue, we added a full litre of oil, and it went back up to full (His car was going flat out all day, used a drop of oil on the dip stick).

The car has been back a few times this is the history:

09/12/11----£168----In for Diagnostic Oil usage/smoking+ O2 sensor
12/12/11----£800----Deposit and major work starts
23/01/12----£3148----Out
21/03/12----£148 ----In/Out for leaking Sump and installation of a Baffled Sump
04/04/12-------------In - Oil usage, Piston Rings not taken
12/05/12----FOC----Out
20/11/12-------------In - Diagnostic, Oil Usage/smoking
26/11/12----£134----Out - PCV Valve Sticking (replaced), Gasket plug seals and plugs replaced


This is the back of the car in April 2012 after the piston rings didn't take on #3:

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Lots of black on the back where the oil's burning, this is a tell-tale sign that something wrong.

These are pictures I took at Combe, the colouring is similar:

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It's clean on the other side where there's no exhaust:

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I'm just updating as I want to ask, what would you do?

If I take it to a civil court 'the balance of probabilities' requires a need to convince a judge that my case is 51% likely to be true (more plausible than the other side).

My case would be that I maintained the car correctly but it still had an underlying oil consumption issue which caused it to starve itself whilst on track. I think that I did what would typically be expected as in I serviced it and maintain the oil level.

Would the requirement of me to prove it wasn't up to spec be wasted? Is it too circumstantial to prove? Does the burden lie with both of us? Comments welcome, and please, be honest.
 
It was baffled by him on 21/03/12, it was confirmed by him as a good idea should it ever see track work. There was a Civic with the same engine running flat out all day on much sticker rubber than I had with no issues.

If it was a pickup issues due to a pump blockage would that then cause it to burn it's oil in the amount it did? Or does it then come back to it died because there wasn't enough oil because it had burnt it all.
 
No and I'd want to keep it that way, I'm sure most Honda owners here know who it is. I figure it's unfair to taint Google with his name when he's not here to defend himself. I guess it's only fair when we're discussing possibilities.
 
Biohazard said:
No, I suspect another spun bearing tbh.

I just mentioned oil pick up as a theoretical problem, which it would be, but I'm hoping there wasn't bits of crap floating around your sump beforehand in any event.
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That was a line of thought, bit of crap off the baffled plate welding jammed up a pipe, but now with swarf everywhere in it's impossible to tell.


Berger said:
I expect the counter argument to be, has the car performed correctly since November last year, and when was it last serviced and by who?
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Serviced by me, it's only oil+filter every 6k. He never voiced any opposition against that idea. Could I have caused the oil consumption issue, if so, how? If there's no way he can prove I did, does that make my plight more believable?


Simon said:
I'd put it down the experience and move on. Don't drag it out as it will stress you out and get messy.

It's not the end of the world losing a few K. Millions of people do it every year on new cars!
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You're right at the end of the day, I want the car back and running and it's not that much money.

New engine is 2k or repair the old one which is £1.5-£2K parts+labour, decisions decisions !
 
No I serviced it with Oil+filter every 6k/6 months (whichever was first), I have receipts from when I bought everything. He changed the plugs in November 2012.

I have an email that I've drafted clarifying what happened at Combe and questioning the underlying oil consumption. I'd like to know why others who have had theirs rebuilt have no consumption whatsoever and mine seems to still have a problem, which I think contributed, along with my failure to check after the first 15mins to it's early demise.
 
You guys are right saying carry on, it's at that point where I've spent so much on other parts that I may as well carry on, or I'll have to start all over OR stump up more money for a sorted car, whatever that will be. If I had the space I could buy a Civic/Teg and fit the bits to it but I don't so I'm limited as to what I can achieve.

I'm not looking to blame the guy 100%, I should have checked the oil again after the first session but it was still burning oil, so I'd hope at the very least for a 50/50 split towards fixing/replacing the engine.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2493818

That's an example of shot rings, but obviously much worse, I could just have had a single ring fail, again.
 
Housey said:
What sort of guarantees were provided with the rebuild? A good engine builder should warrant their work, provide security for any part failures assuming you have followed their prescribed procedure for running in the car after the rebuild. When the engines we rebuilt into the MX5 race cars for example, there was a very specific process to bed them in. Several rev limits, oil changes and a few other running things but once followed all failures of components were covered with a complete rebuild guarantee. I don't know how much money you have put into this car, but I would want to see the engine builder stand by their work if they are a quality outfit and put it right at their expenses if you can prove no miss use. I do not categorise a track day as miss use either, assuming again you followed any prescribed procedures. I would be looking for less mitigation of blame from the builder and more balls standing by their work. Seems you have had a bad rebuild to me that has gone wrong. If the engine is difficult to rebuild that is fine, but the engine builder either does a job with confidence or doesn't do the job. If they do it I expect it to be within the confines of a high quality warranty for their work.

I know nothing about the garage, the parts, the costs of the regime around the rebuild, but it does seems to me, after a scan read, that an engine has been badly built, fiddled with badly and has gone pop. If it were me, I would seek recourse in whatever form was needed.
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The prescribed bedding in procedure was
- 500 miles stay below 5k (keep the revs roaming across the band)
- 1500 miles and change to fully synthetic
- 3000 miles take it in for valve clearance check/adjustment

2800 went back for leaking sump and baffle, valve check was done then.
3100 went back for heavy smoking, ring failed on #3

Oil+Filter every 6k was followed, I have the receipts for those parts and the testimony of friends who did it with me. No other instruction was given, the obvious would stand out, give it a 20min warm up at steady speed before pressing on, don’t labour, especially when cold and maintain the oil level.

I have contacted the garage yesterday hoping to clarify exactly what happened and how to proceed, I’m still waiting on his reply. Thanks for your post, it’s a good way to view the situation.
 
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