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PCGH asks Nvidia on Gameworks

Do they need to share mantle?

I dont think there's really a problem with gameworks, at least not my interpretation of it. What would be a problem would be nVidia incorporating routines to generate that kinds of effects we already see in current games and then locking AMD out. nVidia already achieved that with physx - totally possible to do hardware accelerated physics without having to use it, but by using it AMD are shut out entirely. What if that happens with every day effects like, i dont know, HDR? bloom? real time reflections? could be bad news.

Mantle, right now at least, is not about providing a middleware framework like gamesworks. Mantle is all about getting close to the metal and minimising overhead.

Does nVidia even need mantle? would it benefit them if they had access to it? we already know mantle was built with GCN in mind - would it benefit nVidia hardware at all?
 
humbug said:
Its a good job TR's TressFX isn't full of dll's or Crystal Dynamics would never have got it to work well on Nvidia. ;)
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So what you're saying is that AMD puprosely wrote TressFX to work poorly on Nvidia hardware and it was only thanks to Crystal Dynamics that it got fixed?

LtMatt said:
The solution would be to allow the dev to work with AMD, to show them the source code to allow them to optimise the code to perform better on AMD hardware. If that happened the problems would disappear overnight. Nvidia would still have a performance advantage which is fair enough, it's their code after all. AMD users would get a better experience on GameWorks titles if this were to happen. The problem is AMD are being forced to use code which Nvidia created and does not use themselves.

Seeing as you mentioned Mantle, although AMD wants to retain control of it, they will release a public SDK with full source code. Nvidia will then be free to write drivers using that source code. (when it's made public - end of the year). Of course we all think they won't support it mind. The same will apply for Intel, who i think might adopt it until DX12 arrives. Intel would benefit nicely from Mantle with IGPU.
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That's one solution. The solution that AMD use. Doesn't mean it's the only solution or the best solution.

And Nvidia can write drivers based on the source code? won't they need to write a lot more than that?

Also with Mantle wouldn't the ideal situation be where Nvidia would be able to contribute to it to improve it rather than just be able to see the source code and use it?
 
GoogalyMoogaly said:
So what you're saying is that AMD puprosely wrote TressFX to work poorly on Nvidia hardware and it was only thanks to Crystal Dynamics that it got fixed?
Click to expand...

TressFX was writen for GCN, but 'AMD puprosely wrote TressFX' so that the developer could adapt it for any GPU.
 
Seems Huddy has admitted he was wrong and TressFX source wasn't released until after Tomb Raider was released. So Nvidia didn't have access to that.

Which I believe means that Nvidia haven't been able to optimise any TressFX game before it was released and it was infact broken on release. Purposely broken? Maybe not, maybe it was just through the incompetence of those who wrote it. :)
 
It just proves that to run middleware effectively you need access to source code. Huddy may have got it wrong and TressFX source was not available prior to release, but at least it was available after the game launched and could be fixed and optimised and the developer was allowed to work with Nvidia and show them the source code to fix it. Even though that is not ideal, it's a damn sight better than the situation we currently find ourselves in.
 
LtMatt said:
It just proves that to run middleware effectively you need access to source code. Huddy may have got it wrong and TressFX source was not available prior to release, but at least it was available after the game launched and could be fixed and optimised and the developer was allowed to work with Nvidia and show them the source code to fix it. Even though that is not ideal, it's a damn sight better than the situation we currently find ourselves in.
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Exactly.

As Tommy put it here http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=26534294&postcount=208
 
All it proves is that AMD dont give a crap about their add ons being buggy crap

Watchdogs only uses HBAO+, it works just as well on AMD as on nvidia hardware and gives the same performance drop on both, watchdogs is also (as an unrelated issue) a broken game at its core, even when you remove the only gameworks dll from being used
 
LtMatt said:
It just proves that to run middleware effectively you need access to source code. Huddy may have got it wrong and TressFX source was not available prior to release, but at least it was available after the game launched and could be fixed and optimised and the developer was allowed to work with Nvidia and show them the source code to fix it. Even though that is not ideal, it's a damn sight better than the situation we currently find ourselves in.
Click to expand...

It doesn't prove that at all that's just the way you choose to interpret it...

The NVidia drivers coincided with a patch:

We are working closely with Crystal Dynamics to address and resolve all game issues as quickly as possible.

Please be advised that these issues cannot be completely resolved by an NVIDIA driver. The developer will need to make code changes on their end to fix the issues on GeForce GPUs
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Now if things had been the other way around AMD's likely course of action (based on past evidence) would have been to publically accuse NVidia of dirty tactics, not bother to approach Crystal Dynamics to address the actual issues and so the game does not get fixed for AMD owners (at which point AMD fanboys also put all of the blame on NVidia).

That is the main problem with AMD which this story highlights, if AMD have to jump any hurdles whatsoever they simply sit at the start line complaining that the world (well usually NVidia) is against them, NVidia on the other hand go straight to work to get things fixed for their customers.

As for the source code there's no telling if that helped NVidia any more than if they had been without it, the primary issue was that the game code (in an AMD sponsored game) needed fixing to work well on NVidia GPU's, NVidia didn't sit around complaining they fixed it.
 
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I'm not entirely sure what this is in reply to, I just found it on twitter and it tickled me

:p
 
mmj_uk said:
It doesn't prove that at all that's just the way you choose to interpret it...

The NVidia drivers coincided with a patch:



Now if things had been the other way around AMD's likely course of action (based on past evidence) would have been to publically accuse NVidia of dirty tactics, not bother to approach Crystal Dynamics to address the actual issues and so the game does not get fixed for AMD owners (at which point AMD fanboys also put all of the blame on NVidia).

That is the main problem with AMD which this story highlights, if AMD have to jump any hurdles whatsoever they simply sit at the start line complaining that the world (well usually NVidia) is against them, NVidia on the other hand go straight to work to get things fixed for their customers.

As for the source code there's no telling if that helped NVidia any more than if they had been without it, the primary issue was that the game code (in an AMD sponsored game) needed fixing to work well on NVidia GPU's, NVidia didn't sit around complaining they fixed it.
Click to expand...

Well said and I think that tells us as well how AMD "is fixing " a current problem with 60 Hz on 4K not running on the current AMDs highend.
I have contacted some of them being in charge , but only one person from this forum has proven himself to be really helpful.
 
I think we all have to remember Huddy admitted to it being a lie straight after the interview. Why are we only hearing about it now. Yep news gets hits and PC perspective are just as much to blame as him. I smell a set up on both sides here for mutual gain. Terrible practice but if this was Nvidia there's no way in hell they would retract. Still AMD scored an own goal in this respect to me.
 
At least huddy held his hands up, still waiting on Nvidia's Cem Cebenoyan doing the same in regards to just needing fixes at the driver level when it's clear Nvidia had to work in co-operation with CD's on getting TR running well on Nvidia.
 
TheRealDeal said:
I think we all have to remember Huddy admitted to it being a lie straight after the interview. Why are we only hearing about it now. Yep news gets hits and PC perspective are just as much to blame as him. I smell a set up on both sides here for mutual gain. Terrible practice but if this was Nvidia there's no way in hell they would retract. Still AMD scored an own goal in this respect to me.
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AMD lied, simple as. Got called out on it and had to own up to it.

None of this would have been news to anyone if he had not lied.
 
I don't think anyone called him out on it, did they? I thought he contacted pcper and said i got that part wrong, source code was available after the game launched not just before.
 
LtMatt said:
I don't think anyone called him out on it. I think he contacted pcper and said i got that part wrong, source code was available after the game launched not just before.
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Fair enough to him at least he nipped it in the bud, maybe he should think before he speaks in future as we have seen how his words are taken as fact.
 
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