Physician Associate

xaldub said:
The cost to train a doctor from undergraduate level to foundation level is at least £230,000. And that figure is 7 years out of date.
Click to expand...
if you mean university, then should everyone also be forced to indentured servitude until they pay back their university fees?
what about those that immediately go into the private sectors?

if you mean after university, it's called a salary for doing a job. there's very little "training"
nearly all "training" is done after working hours in own time, and exams/courses etc is paid out of pocket (mostly)
 
tamzzy said:
if you mean university, then should everyone also be forced to indentured servitude until they pay back their university fees?
what about those that immediately go into the private sectors?

if you mean after university, it's called a salary for doing a job. there's very little "training"
nearly all "training" is done after working hours in own time, and exams/courses etc is paid out of pocket (mostly)
Click to expand...
Estimated training costs doesn't include salaries. There is an infrastructure cost, paying for the educators ( at undergraduate level ), creation and maintenenance of the job itself ( outwith salary ) etc.
 
xaldub said:
Estimated training costs doesn't include salaries. There is an infrastructure cost, paying for the educators ( at undergraduate level ), creation and maintenenance of the job itself ( outwith salary ) etc.
Click to expand...
tamzzy said:
if you mean university, then should everyone also be forced to indentured servitude until they pay back their university fees?
what about those that immediately go into the private sectors?
Click to expand...
 
tamzzy said:
if you mean university, then should everyone also be forced to indentured servitude until they pay back their university fees?
what about those that immediately go into the private sectors?

if you mean after university, it's called a salary for doing a job. there's very little "training"
nearly all "training" is done after working hours in own time, and exams/courses etc is paid out of pocket (mostly)
Click to expand...

No. Not university. The NHS and government bear some of the costs for training. As pointed out it costs about £300k to train a doctor.
It's standard across many industries and workplaces that if you leave after the company makes a significant investment in you you are tied to part of the costs.

For example my previous company had a policy whereby if they paid for your degree you had to pay back 100% if you left within a year, 70% in two and so on tailing off to 0 after 4 years.
 
Last edited:
xaldub said:
The cost to train a doctor from undergraduate level to foundation level is at least £230,000. And that figure is 7 years out of date.
Click to expand...
Dis86 said:
As pointed out it costs about £300k to train a doctor.
Click to expand...

7 years out of date and not quite correct. https://fullfact.org/health/cost-training-doctor/
p23, but wow £111k the government pays for the clinical years. I definitely did not receive £111k's worth of teaching for that 3 years...

Dis86 said:
It's standard across many industries and workplaces that if you leave after the company makes a significant investment in you you are tied to part of the costs.
For example my previous company had a policy whereby if they paid for your degree you had to pay back 100% of you left within a year, 70% in two and so on tailing off to 0 after 4 years.
Click to expand...

after reading up, i wouldn't mind that, if the pay matched other comparative groups (they don't for the most part, and unsurprisingly alongside the work environment, easy to see why less are staying)
p111/112
 
tamzzy said:
7 years out of date and not quite correct. https://fullfact.org/health/cost-training-doctor/
p23, but wow £111k the government pays for the clinical years. I definitely did not receive £111k's worth of teaching for that 3 years...



after reading up, i wouldn't mind that, if the pay matched other comparative groups (they don't for the most part, and unsurprisingly alongside the work environment, easy to see why less are staying)
p111/112
Click to expand...

I wouldn't rely on the fullfact articles as they contradict themselves. The government figures are likely to be more reliable.

Nice one from the bjgp here.

bjgp.org

GP induction and refresher and retainer schemes: are they cost-effective?

There are many reasons why doctors may not wish to commit fully to a lifetime’s work in the NHS. However, the early loss of GPs is contributing to the impending GP workforce crisis. The Retainer and Induction & Refresher (I&R) schemes help to keep or reintroduce GPs in the workforce, but at a...
bjgp.org bjgp.org
 
When my wife was working at Northwick Park hospital in London, they hired a lot of PAs and replaced doctors whose contracts were coming to an end. Considering their lack of qualifications compared to a junior doctor, it was crazy how much responsibility they were being given. Worse for the doctors, they had better salaries than foundation year doctors.

This link seems to work: https://www.bma.org.uk/media/p13leadh/20250208-bma-reporting-portal-submissions-v3.pdf
 
Last edited:
Helios1234 said:
When my wife was working at Northwick Park hospital in London, they hired a lot of PAs and replaced doctors whose contracts were coming to an end. Considering their lack of qualifications compared to a junior doctor, it was crazy how much responsibility they were being given. Worse for the doctors, they had better salaries than foundation year doctors.

This link seems to work: https://www.bma.org.uk/media/p13leadh/20250208-bma-reporting-portal-submissions-v3.pdf
Click to expand...
Yeah paid substantially more, for a shorter week, whilst needing greater supervision and able to do less.

No one engaged their brain at any point when creating PAs.
 
Last edited:
Dr House said:
What are your thoughts on Physician Associates (PAs)?
Click to expand...

A typically Tory idea: hire cheaper, less qualified staff to save a few pennies, resulting in a decline in service quality and resentment among existing professionals.
 
tamzzy said:
Just be a locum. I've halved my working hours and nearly doubled my salary
Click to expand...
locums are needed, but not everyone wants the life and different stresses of being a locum. Having done both I didn't feel anywhere near the longer term ownership of my patients as a principle. I expect similar in most specialities. Works for some, but not for everyone
 
tamzzy said:
Just be a locum. I've halved my working hours and nearly doubled my salary
Click to expand...


Precarious position more and more wile the financial pressures on trusts. All our bank nurses are all up in arms as the latest dictat from NHSE was to cut back wildly on bank spending, leaving them without work.

GP locums have dried up too with the mass import of IMGs and every random AHP playing GP.

Secondary care training bottlenecks will result in more people floating around taking up trust posts.
 
Last edited:
Minstadave said:
Precarious position more and more wile the financial pressures on trusts. All our bank nurses are all up in arms as the latest dictat from NHSE was to cut back wildly on bank spending, leaving them without work.

GP locums have dried up too with the mass import of IMGs and every random AHP playing GP.

Secondary care training bottlenecks will result in more people floating around taking up trust posts.
Click to expand...
It is a messy place for training right now! Madness that we train GPs but there is no funding for them to get appointed to work.

There was hope that the new GP contract would help for recruitment of newly trained GPs rather than be ring fenced to AHPs. That was from a GP regional lead following the latest announcement, but as always have to see what happens.
 
heeeed said:
locums are needed, but not everyone wants the life and different stresses of being a locum. Having done both I didn't feel anywhere near the longer term ownership of my patients as a principle. I expect similar in most specialities. Works for some, but not for everyone
Click to expand...
Minstadave said:
Precarious position more and more wile the financial pressures on trusts. All our bank nurses are all up in arms as the latest dictat from NHSE was to cut back wildly on bank spending, leaving them without work.

GP locums have dried up too with the mass import of IMGs and every random AHP playing GP.

Secondary care training bottlenecks will result in more people floating around taking up trust posts.
Click to expand...

Haha yes in the future maybe. But for now enjoying working less and making more. Might pick up a permanent post when the time comes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom