Piracy and Small Game Developers

[Deleted member 61728]

I wonder if people would pirate as much if the game devs realeased full versions of their games for free but with a time limit on them so that the gamer could get a better impression of a game than a 1 level buggy demo would ?

 

[Vai]

Piracy is a scapegoat. If someone is going to pirate a game on the PC they would be pirating games on the NDS, Xbox360 or other consoles they own. I mention NDS and Xbox360 because I know they are a lot easier to play pirated games on than the PC.

 

[Chronictank]

But what if the game is not a AAA title but rather pretty good fun for a couple of weeks, the sort of game that gets 80% in reviews.

You might play a pirate copy for a while, decide it was fun while it lasted and decide not to buy a retail copy. I believe that was the issue with Iron Lore, Titan Quest was a reasonably good game that sold moderate numbers yet was damaged by ill judged reviews and peer comments who played the pirate game.

A game like Bioshock was always going to sell with or without piracy, but for less prominent games the margins are much smaller. I guess i just don't see it in black and white, some games arn't tosh nor are they high quality, they're the ones who rely on sales margins more than anyone and are hurt the most.

Or on the contrary, no one would buy it anyway as it is a subpar game
that is the point, piracy in "some" instances will improve sales as people such as myself who try games which i wouldnt otherwise even look at am occasionally pleasantly surprised so i go out and purchase it

If i didnt have the option to have a go at it first, i can honestly say i would not even consider buying it
examples where this is the case (for me at least) were games like Psychonauts and Stubbs the zombie which were good games in their own right but had i not played them before hand i would not have even considered buying them.

Hell i wouldnt have even blinked twice at games like Grim Fandango or Ico (possibly one the most ignored game ever, but has an absolutley awesome storyline), but having tried them i went and bought it within the same week

 

[Orcish-Horde]

But what if the game is not a AAA title but rather pretty good fun for a couple of weeks, the sort of game that gets 80% in reviews.

You might play a pirate copy for a while, decide it was fun while it lasted and decide not to buy a retail copy. I believe that was the issue with Iron Lore, Titan Quest was a reasonably good game that sold moderate numbers yet was damaged by ill judged reviews and peer comments who played the pirate game.

A game like Bioshock was always going to sell with or without piracy, but for less prominent games the margins are much smaller. I guess i just don't see it in black and white, some games arn't tosh nor are they high quality, they're the ones who rely on sales margins more than anyone and are hurt the most.

So what your saying is its OK to release an average clone run of the mill game and we should all be falling over ourselfs to buy it?

Diablo 2 & Sacred are games like Titan Quest, then there was NOX, Divine Divinty, Neverwinter Nights, Morrwind and you could add Guildwars, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Acanuim, Revenant and Silver all sitting on my shelf. Now what did Titan Quest do that made it stand out from the crowd? Demo? Stable review sample? Bug freeish release? I can't help but feel this is another Cliffyb my game didn't sell because its a rehash lets blame it all on piracy. I mean he was calling all the people who had problems with his game thick.

Anyone remember a game called Warrior Kings that was a game that was shaping up to be a great but they released it early and it was bug ridden. Their fan base turned on them because of the state of the game, any visitor to their forums would have seem nothing but flames, not a chance of them buying the game. I think the devs folded. My point being that if your game didn't sell chance is that the game wouldn't sell reguardless of piracy.

 

[Durzel]

So what your saying is its OK to release an average clone run of the mill game and we should all be falling over ourselfs to buy it?

That's a bit of a flawed argument really.

It is ok for them to release an "average clone run of the mill game" - you have every right as a consumer to not buy it. The way you talk it's as if we're somehow obligated to buy every game released and therefore piracy is justifiable because "I wouldn't have bought it anyway". If a game is genuinely crap then that will be reflected in sales even taking into account piracy.

If you're gonna pirate stuff just do it - but don't labour under the delusion that you're only doing it "because publishers make too much money", "never intended to buy the game anyway" or another weak justification.

 

[Shamikebab]

Most of those games are not like Diablo 2 though, especially not Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind (?!?), Arcanum.

 

[-BA-]

I don't think anyone will ever argue that piracy is not wrong. People will however argue their own reasoning for perhaps having partaken in piracy at some point in their lives. One thing I will say though is that every company out there, publisher or otherwise will always cost piracy losses into their profits/loss forecasts. Companies are there to make money, simple. You think that if they eliminated piracy overnight they would lower the cost of games? Not on your nelly, they would increase them stating that it was due to the fact that they had to outlay so much on fighting piracy in the first place.

Now you can look at another angle which is publishing house screwing the developers for every penny before the devs see profit. Then you see them pushing the devs for ridiculously short turnaround times to bring the game to the shelves. Frontlines:Fuel of War is a complete joke at the minute. Do you think the publishers care? Nope, they hyped it up to make sure the initial sales brought their income home to roost. The poor devs are the ones fielding the flying poo from people who have a game sitting on their shelves that doesn't work and quite plainly was never ready for release. Beta testing has turned into a farce of late where games are released within days of the beta closing even though the issues haven't been addressed. Then we see a flurry of patches that don't address the key issues and only focus on new fancy features or minor technical repairs.

So who is the pirate now? People for copying a game? Or publishers/developers for "stealing" our hard earned money for something that does not do what it says on the tin.

Oh and for the record don't come back saying it's all to do with the architecture of PCs and the number of manufacturers out there. They can't even get it right on consoles where there is only one manufacturer per format.

 

[Bloodshot]

The average AAA game needs to sell 80,000 copies to break even, for the developer to actually start making profits it has to sell a few hundred thousand.

You're way off the mark there mate .

 

[Orcish-Horde]

That's a bit of a flawed argument really.

It is ok for them to release an "average clone run of the mill game" - you have every right as a consumer to not buy it. The way you talk it's as if we're somehow obligated to buy every game released and therefore piracy is justifiable because "I wouldn't have bought it anyway". If a game is genuinely crap then that will be reflected in sales even taking into account piracy.

If you're gonna pirate stuff just do it - but don't labour under the delusion that you're only doing it "because publishers make too much money", "never intended to buy the game anyway" or another weak justification.

Im not justifing any piracy. A TQ dev is blaming piracy for his game not selling, Im pointing out the their game didn't stand out from the crowd. As such why buy it if you already have a load of good games that are very much like it?

Most of those games are not like Diablo 2 though, especially not Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind (?!?), Arcanum.

Sword, axes, wizards, warriors they all have their different play styles but they are all RPGs. Be that hack,n,slash, turn based or loot whoring.

 

[Shamikebab]

Sword, axes, wizards, warriors they all have their different play styles but they are all RPGs. Be that hack,n,slash, turn based or loot whoring.

So there can only be one fantasy RPG? You can lump every game into a genre if you try hard enough. Titan Quest was a good game that offered something different to any of those games you mentioned (although a few I've never heard of). Just as no-one in there right mind would say "well I've played Diablo 2, no point in playing morrowind"

 

[fish99]

I know lots of people who used to spend £300-400 on PC gaming every year who now pirate pretty much everything. So there's a factual revenue loss. If my friends/family do it then so do lots of people. Also I know 2 people who were sent warnings from BT internet that their accounts were going to be suspended if they continued downloading movies from the net. I've read the letters myself and they clearly stated that the ISP was forced to take the action after beind contacted by Warner.

Also wrt the charts posted above, that's gaming not PC gaming. No one is doubting the rise in overall gaming but at the same time console gaming is growing, PC gaming is shrinking, many of the best developers have already gone out of business and the rest are all switching to cross platform meaning we get consolized games on the PC from studios who used to make PC games (Oblivion, Bioshock etc).

As for whether the police have the power to get contact info from ISPs, I am only talking in cases where they have concrete evidence that the connection has been used to commit a crime.

 

[chimaera]

So what your saying is its OK to release an average clone run of the mill game and we should all be falling over ourselfs to buy it?

No one is forcing you to buy anything, if you don't like the look of it or you don't think the demo is any good then don't buy it, pure and simple. It just seems to be an excuse, "oh but i was just testing it out", and to be honest it's not a very good one at that.

I've bought plenty of games (some you mentioned actually) that i thought i'd enjoy but didn't, but thats the decision i made. When i'm not sure about a game i leave it a year and then pick it up on the cheap, then if it's tosh i haven't wasted much money. Thats what i did with TQ and i found it to be a good game, it's definitely not a cheap diablo clone, yes it's the same genre but it deserves more credit than that.

At the end of the day it wasn't that bad a game for the developers to lose their jobs, if they say piracy was partly to blame i can easily believe it.

 

[Orcish-Horde]

So there can only be one fantasy RPG? You can lump every game into a genre if you try hard enough. Titan Quest was a good game that offered something different to any of those games you mentioned (although a few I've never heard of). Just as no-one in there right mind would say "well I've played Diablo 2, no point in playing morrowind"

I have bought and played all them games I listed Im not saying D2 is the be all to end all of RPGs. What I pointed out was that the market is full of great RPGs TQ just didn't stand out. Im not rubbishing the game just pointing something out, TQ may be a good game but so are the rest of my list.

 

[Chronictank]

I know lots of people who used to spend £300-400 on PC gaming every year who now pirate pretty much everything. So there's a factual revenue loss. If my friends/family do it then so do lots of people. Also I know 2 people who were sent warnings from BT internet that their accounts were going to be suspended if they continued downloading movies from the net. I've read the letters myself and they clearly stated that the ISP was forced to take the action after beind contacted by Warner.

I doubt there are 'many people like them', as the ISP contacted them regarding it
Meaning they were doing a ridiculous amount of it

Also wrt the charts posted above, that's gaming not PC gaming. No one is doubting the rise in overall gaming but at the same time console gaming is growing, PC gaming is shrinking, many of the best developers have already gone out of business and the rest are all switching to cross platform meaning we get consolized games on the PC from studios who used to make PC games (Oblivion, Bioshock etc).

I would like to see proof of this, the second chart was specifically showing PC gaming and it showed a posotive trend

Beside that i find it hysterical that you are blaming piracy for the shriking PC gaming industry (assuming there is some factual basis for this),
the fact of the matter is that consoles are becoming more and more accesible, and all are now available for online play in the mainstream whereas previously they were not can't have anything to do with it right?

 

[AGD]

You're way off the mark there mate .

Do you think it's more or less because from what I've seen in the past those figures are believable and I know very big games have to sell more than that.

 

[fish99]

I doubt there are 'many people like them', as the ISP contacted them regarding it
Meaning they were doing a ridiculous amount of it


I would like to see proof of this, the second chart was specifically showing PC gaming and it showed a posotive trend

Beside that i find it hysterical that you are blaming piracy for the shriking PC gaming industry (assuming there is some factual basis for this),
the fact of the matter is that consoles are becoming more and more accesible, and all are now available for online play in the mainstream whereas previously they were not can't have anything to do with it right?

The people contacted by their ISPs are not the same people who used to spend lots on games and now pirate (and no they don't pirate a ridiculous amount). Like I said the BT internet warnings were just about movies. Warner actively pursue people, whereas no one in the gaming industry does.

The second chart doesn't say anything about PC on it, it says video game revenue.

 

[ColdAsIce]

I have pirated movies in the past and I have nothing to gain from it and the Studios or cinema dont lose anything by me doing it either. I pay £11.99 a month for a cinema pass at cineworld.

Still found myself pirating a movie as the release date is sometimes weeks if not months after the US release which is very fustrating. I will still go to see it once its released in the cinema unless it is really bad

The only way games are going to stop pirating is by having an awesome multiplayer so people need to buy the game for the cd key.

 

[Teki187]

The only way games are going to stop pirating is by having an awesome multiplayer so people need to buy the game for the cd key.

That is tripe. Multiplayer isnt the reason games are made.

You make a decent game, I'll buy it. You make Sims 3, i'll eat my anus.

 

[fish99]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=33686

here's the full post which is an interesting read-

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663

Two, the numbers on piracy are really astonishing. The research I've seen pegs the piracy rate at between 70-85% on PC in the US, 90%+ in Europe, off the charts in Asia. I didn't believe it at first. It seemed way too high. Then I saw that Bioshock was selling 5 to 1 on console vs. PC. And Call of Duty 4 was selling 10 to 1. These are hardcore games, shooters, classic PC audience stuff. Given the difference in install base, I can't believe that there's that big of a difference in who played these games, but I guess there can be in who actually payed for them.

Let's dig a little deeper there. So, if 90% of your audience is stealing your game, even if you got a little bit more, say 10% of that audience to change their ways and pony up, what's the difference in income? Just about double. That's right, double. That's easily the difference between commercial failure and success. That's definitely the difference between doing okay and founding a lasting franchise. Even if you cut that down to 1% - 1 out of every hundred people who are pirating the game - who would actually buy the game, that's still a 10% increase in revenue. Again, that's big enough to make the difference between breaking even and making a profit.

Titan Quest did okay. We didn't lose money on it. But if even a tiny fraction of the people who pirated the game had actually spent some god-damn money for their 40+ hours of entertainment, things could have been very different today. You can bitch all you want about how piracy is your god-given right, and none of it matters anyway because you can't change how people behave... whatever. Some really good people made a seriously good game, and they might still be in business if piracy weren't so rampant on the PC. That's a fact.

 

[Vtec9k]

Still found myself pirating a movie as the release date is sometimes weeks if not months after the US release which is very fustrating. I will still go to see it once its released in the cinema unless it is really bad

That's a huge factor in why I've pirated games and movies in the past. Months of buzz about certain games/movies/etc then release day comes and... WTF! UK release is 3 weeks later...

Why give pirates such a huge window of opportunity to peddle their wares but the stupidity that is staggered release dates.