Soldato
New info?
plan for collapse of Thames Water
- Thread starter Mrwong
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Soldato
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ah well..... at least we can all go and swim in a nice clean lake windamere right! 
and the annoying thing is... when there are algal blooms in there they blame it on holiday makers..... maybe just maybe it's the raw sewage they pump into it.
and the annoying thing is... when there are algal blooms in there they blame it on holiday makers..... maybe just maybe it's the raw sewage they pump into it.
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ah well..... at least we can all go and swim in a nice clean lake windamere right!
and the annoying thing is... when there are algal blooms in there they blame it on holiday makers..... maybe just maybe it's the raw sewage they pump into it.
I have to be the dampener of outrage but the algae blooms coincide with hot periods where large numbers of people flock to the lakes. The raw sewage dumping co-insides with heavy rain which is the opposite of when people flock to the lakes.
The saw sewage dumping is largely a function of the mixed waste and surface water sewage system they inherited which dates back to the Victorian era. Even if a condition of privatisation was them digging up the existing network and replacing it with a separated waste and surface water drains (like all new buildings have) the private companies running the show would have:
a)still made the same amount of profit because they are regulated at a certain level
b) put up your bills to pay for it
In reality the regulator actually prevents water companies investing in all of this to keep bills down so really its them you need to point the finger at. If water companies told by the regulator to sort the problem and were allowed to raise rates to pay for the new infrastructure, they would. Spilling sewage isn't a new thing, its been happening since long before privatisation and fundamentally nothing has changed on that front since these systems were installed. The only difference is the public seem to have noticed its happening.
We can't invest AND pay out massive dividends without raising prices ? Dividends it is then…
No. The business profits are regulated to a relatively modest level to lower bills for customers. As an investor why would you hand money into a business which isn't going to generate you a return. The two things are mutually exclusive.
If you want them to invest in the business, they need to be able to get a return on that investment, if they can't they will just invest into a business which will. It really is that simple.
I'm not defending the water companies here, it is what it is which is a failure of privatisation and subsequent regulation.
Then they need to do some business stuff, increase the customer base... oh wait, maybe release water max with a higher margin.
It's nonsense, there is no return on investment other than fleecing customers that's the problem.
Soldato
- Joined
- 23 May 2006
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they illegally dumped a sh..load of raw sewage illegally on at least 2 occasions, the recent one was this year. they knew there was a fault but didn't send anyone out to it until the following day. they also kept a lid on it for longer than they were supposed to.
algal blooms will tend to happen in really warm weather (which will coincide with large numbers of people) but if the base line numbers of nitrates / phosphates are already higher than they should be due to sewage then it.is surely going to compound any problem and have less of a margin before there will be issues.
Untreated sewage pumped into Windermere after fault
Millions of litres of raw sewage were pumped into one of England's most famous lakes after a fault.
www.bbc.co.uk
Raw sewage 'cover-up' at Windermere World Heritage Site
Leaked papers suggest United Utilities logged dozens of incidents as less serious than they had been.
www.bbc.co.uk
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Soldato
I think the issue with nutrients causing algal blooms is that sewage contributes to them whether or not it's treated. Nitrate and phosphate levels in treated waste water might so be quite high, so even if the sewage works is working as it should it won't necessarily solve this problem.
Indeed you are correct. As posted in the other thread.
Tourist influx turns Windermere green, researchers say
New research links algal blooming at England's largest lake with increased visitor numbers
www.bbc.co.uk
I’ve been beaten to it but as others have as treated water contains high levels of nitrogen and phosphates that is a function of the treatment process.they illegally dumped a sh..load of raw sewage illegally on at least 2 occasions, the recent one was this year. they knew there was a fault but didn't send anyone out to it until the following day. they also kept a lid on it for longer than they were supposed to.
algal blooms will tend to happen in really warm weather (which will coincide with large numbers of people) but if the base line numbers of nitrates / phosphates are already higher than they should be due to sewage then it.is surely going to compound any problem and have less of a margin before there will be issues.
Untreated sewage pumped into Windermere after fault
Millions of litres of raw sewage were pumped into one of England's most famous lakes after a fault.www.bbc.co.uk
Raw sewage 'cover-up' at Windermere World Heritage Site
Leaked papers suggest United Utilities logged dozens of incidents as less serious than they had been.www.bbc.co.uk
They use bacteria to break down the ammonia in the waste (pee/turds), that bacteria breaks it down to nitrite and more bacteria breaks down the nitrite into nitrate. Once it’s nitrate, it’s released into the river.
The phosphate also comes from the waste and there isn’t much they can do with it at this scale.
Plants ultimately consume the nitrate and phosphate as part of their nutrient uptake but too much of it triggers algae blooms.
Anyone with a fish tank should understand this filtration process.
Edit: to add some balance to this, in a practical sense, there is always going to be an element ‘illegal dumping’, it’s plants are not going to have 100% uptime, be that mechanical failure or because people flush all sorts down the drains that they shouldn’t. It’s how the company responds to those failures that’s the issue.
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Echoes of Trentham hall.
Soldato
- Joined
- 23 May 2006
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indeed i was thinking of my old fishkeeping days when looking at this thread earlier.
It is unfortunate that even treated sewage is a problem and something i didnt consider, however either way i find it hard to believe that even multiple hundred people swimming in a large lake is going to have a bigger effect that pumping potentially millions of litres sewage into the lake, and kind of seems to me like trying to pass the buck.
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Caporegime
So TW want a rise of 59% on bills
Water firms ask for bill rises of between 24% and 91%
Southern Water wants to increase its bills by £436 a year, but is not expected to get approval.
www.bbc.co.uk
Soldato
The problem is much more intricate than people understand.
It is simply not as simple as "Water company pays dividends instead of investing."
Water companies have to submit a detailed plan for spending to Ofwat. Ofwat then have to approve it. In essence Ofwat control how much the water companies can spend and on what.
In principle this is done to protect customers from unreasonable price rises, but in practice IMO, Ofwat has failed in it's job.
Thames Water for example was "owned" by RWE and Macquarie both of whom asset stripped the company and Ofwat totally failed to prevent it.
As a result TW now has more borrowing, fewer assets and a massive overhead of required infrastructure investment.
Water companies are certainly culpable, but Ofwat has had a HUGE role in letting it happen.
It is simply not as simple as "Water company pays dividends instead of investing."
Water companies have to submit a detailed plan for spending to Ofwat. Ofwat then have to approve it. In essence Ofwat control how much the water companies can spend and on what.
In principle this is done to protect customers from unreasonable price rises, but in practice IMO, Ofwat has failed in it's job.
Thames Water for example was "owned" by RWE and Macquarie both of whom asset stripped the company and Ofwat totally failed to prevent it.
As a result TW now has more borrowing, fewer assets and a massive overhead of required infrastructure investment.
Water companies are certainly culpable, but Ofwat has had a HUGE role in letting it happen.
Ours is with Portsmouth Water for supply but wastewater is covered by southern water so we get 2 smaller bills.How are some of these so cheap?
Requested increases by 2030
Soldato
How are some of these so cheap?
Requested increases by 2030
It's a little misleading because it's by company not by service. Some companies on that list are water only, others are water & waste. Eg if you're a Portsmouth customer you would have to add together the water uplift from Portsmouth plus the wastewater uplift from Southern (not given).
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Must still be quite cheap?
I've never really looked at the breakdown though.