Platypus' Beginners Guide to Running

The pain in your legs/lungs far exceeds the little click on the finger tip.

That test you linked to just goes as far at the second threshold by the looks of it, the guy near me goes until you pop... Like, fall off the bike kinda territory.
All for £50 too :D
 
NoNameNoNumber said:
For those asking about heart rate zones. I would suggest doing a blood lactate test. Basically a ramp test with a blood sample taken after each 3 min interval. 4mmol/L is the lactate threshold, anything beyond that and the lactates will buildup eventually shutting you down.
I did mine cycling and it gave me a HR threshold of 168bpm but I know from experience of running that my threshold HR is around 10 or so beats higher sort of 177-180ish...
Means as I'm running and feeling kinda lowsy so long as my heart rate is below 180 I know it's in my head and to keep going...
Not that I have a vast amount of knowledge or experience, just what I've learned from getting more mileage in and taking this triathlon stuff more seriously.

I'll be running my first half on Sunday, North Lincs. I've done 2 halves in Ironman 70.3 but never done a fresh half, hoping for sub 1:40, 7:30min/miles and I'd be happy.
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The problem is there is no easy way to do a lactate threshold test, so the test result you have done quickly becomes obsolete as you train. At least you would hope as you train your LT increases. And since you don;t have real-time LT feedback, unlike HR, you can't adjust your running pace in real time to reflect how hard you are actually working.


There is also the issue that LT is not that useful to base training around. At least 80% of your running need to be much slower than Lactate threshold, around 2-2.5 minutes per mile slower. And when you want to do quality work most of it will want to be faster than LT, typically about 30-45sec/mile faster. Training at LT doesn't produce many relevant adaptions, but runs at a similar pace can be useful when used sparingly, more from a mental perspective than anything. And the pace doesn't have to be particularly close to LT.


With HR you get instant real time feedback, can watch your Hr for a given pace change week after week, and can adapt training during your actual run based on feedback.E.g, perhaps your HR is very high for the pace, so you should back away. Using HR will let you respond to hills, high temperatures, humidity, wind, fatigue etc. E.g., if it is a hot day if you run based on HR zones then it is clear why you should slow down, or if your legs are tired form a workout the day before the HR will be a useful guide on how much to slow down such that the run is still easy.

Although LT represents an interesting limit to run performance at certain paces, it is less useful than VO2Max at predicting race performance over most distances. For a 10K, most people run faster than LT but will finish before the lactae has accumulated too high and in anycase VO2max is the limit. Most people run a half marathon slower than LT and the lactate doesn't accumulate.

When cycling things are a little different. Power meters replace HR as the most useful tool. Even with cycling I'm not sure that knowing your exact LT is that useful for training compared to simply getting s good FTP measurement.



Good luck on Sunday!
 
NoNameNoNumber said:
The pain in your legs/lungs far exceeds the little click on the finger tip.

That test you linked to just goes as far at the second threshold by the looks of it, the guy near me goes until you pop... Like, fall off the bike kinda territory.
All for £50 too :D
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Does he also do a VO2max test, that will be more useful for running to set HR zones.
 
You bring up good points DP, and yes I appreciate the limits of the test but the guy does have a lot of experience and advice to offer based on the results. Also, over the two tests I've done it is nice to quantify the improvements I made over winter.
The results lay out the zones in the same way that British Cycling do, so it makes training more structured. Tempo runs are exactly that with a set HR range to run to, recovery runs the same etc. So for someone like me that doesn't have that much history or experience to call up on, I feel it has helped me a lot- even if like you say, a lot of it is only mental.
Do bare in mind that my training is for Iron distance stuff though where lactate build up is real...

Not sure he does VO2 stuff. I'll ask though, I'm hoping to get a massage next week before I fly out to Vietnam for a 70.3 :)
 
NoNameNoNumber said:
You bring up good points DP, and yes I appreciate the limits of the test but the guy does have a lot of experience and advice to offer based on the results. Also, over the two tests I've done it is nice to quantify the improvements I made over winter.
The results lay out the zones in the same way that British Cycling do, so it makes training more structured. Tempo runs are exactly that with a set HR range to run to, recovery runs the same etc. So for someone like me that doesn't have that much history or experience to call up on, I feel it has helped me a lot- even if like you say, a lot of it is only mental.
Do bare in mind that my training is for Iron distance stuff though where lactate build up is real...

Not sure he does VO2 stuff. I'll ask though, I'm hoping to get a massage next week before I fly out to Vietnam for a 70.3 :)
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Knowing your LT is nice to measure improvements in fitness, it is just had to incorporate into your every day training. like I said if it is a hot day or your have some buitl up fatigue you will need ot run slower, and using your HR is a great way to get an idea how hard you are working and thus how to adjust your pace.

Tempo runs are at around LT pace, but they are quite limited in functionality. As I said, about 80% of your running will be way slower, and most of the the rest way faster. there is just not that much value in tempo runs compared to VO2max intervals or easy running. I tend to do about 3 tempo runs in an 18 week marathon cycle.

For IM distance you don't need to worry about Lactate Threshold because your pace will be much slower (as least on he run). For a triathlon I imagine it is more important for an Olympic and sprint distance. Marathon runners never have to worry about LT, not even the worlds fastest get close to LT pace. Even at Half marathon distance, it si only the worlds elite that might possible be affected by LT rather than straight Vo2max. And the thing is, LT tracks VOP2max closely. So as you get fitter and VO2max increases your LT will follow. So it will be very rare to find yourself in a situation where LT is inhibiting performance. This might be somewhat different on a bike.

I woudl also be careful if you come form a background with lot of cycling then you might have a higher LT than what your run fitness really permits. If you set training paces form your LT you might be running too fast. You mentioned that a lot of it is mental, which makes me wonder if you are doing your easy runs too fast. There shouldn't be anything mental about an easy run, by definition it should feel easy. There should be a a feeling if exhaustion/tiredness/out of breath, at least not until the end of a longer run. You said you hope to race a hlaf marathon at about 7:30 pace, that would mean an easy pace of around 9:30-50 a mile for most of your runs.


VO2Max tests are much more useful for running and will give more accurate heart rate zones, paces and performance predictions. But as with any static test, you hope to be increasing your Vo2max so the calculated zones soon become obsolete. And the predictions are only accurate if you train at the appropriate level, which for a marathon will man a lot of run volume on top of nailign work ous.
 
Thanks for your input DP. you are bang on... My easy runs are too fast, unless I run with my friend who is slower than I am...
On my own my last run was 6.88 miles 7:43 pace, avg HR 161
Last run with the other guy 11.28 miles 9:32 pace, avg HR 158

Wa?! check out those HRs!

Another solo run
8.9 miles 7.28 pace, avg HR 163

I do enjoy chasing a few Strava segments around town... That's where I can feel good up around 175+ and I do enjoy the intervals... And although it feels great to push on and I feel it's reasonably sustainable I know it's not really where I should be focusing, hence why I have taken a lot of mileage to the treadmill.
My watch keeps saying 'New threshold@ and currently says 7:17 i think... not sure how realistic that is though, I'm hoping to try and find out this sunday though :D
 
If 7:30 is you goal pace for your half then you are doing training runs at your race pace. That will lead to injury and burn out. 9:30 a mile is plenty fast enough for you to see most of the aerobic gains. For reference, my most recent Half marathon was at 6:17 pace but 80-90% of my running was at 8:30 pace with the rest around 5:50, except for some LONG runs where I would start at 9 and end at 7:30m pace.

Train slow, race fast is the mantra. Strava and running watches are very dangerous in making people run too fast.

There is also a big difference between cycling and running. Cycling you can do much more intensity, and the intensity is more beneficial. Running you have to do way less or you get injured, and even if you could do more it is much less beneficial after a certain point. A little goes a very long way in running. Conversely, large volumes of easy running is extrmely beneficial to running, and will be by far the biggest impact on race day performance.
 
Running can be counter intuitive at first, because you get the most gains by doing things slower and easier. But lots of easy running with just a little intensity works.

This years winner of the Boston Marathon talked about his training schedule. 5-6 days a week he runr 20km easy, his own words were 'jog'. 1 day a week he does an interval workout, 10x1000m or 20x400m. Since he is faster than me his intervals workout is the same as mine. On the 7th day he tries to race.

I follow a few pros on Strava. You would be surprised how many run at 8:00 pace for many runs. The difference is they will break out a 22mile run at 5:00 a mile etc.
 
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Jonnycoupe said:
Interesting comments there, certainly that competitive edge pops out when you start timing!
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Save that competitive edge for you know, a competition.

If you make your training competitive you will get injured, suffer over training syndrome, and your running performance will rapidly decline.
 
11.2 miles, 8:35 pace, 151 hr.
Felt good, easy, in fact and ended up with two random miles at low 7:xx by accident. Tried not to be a slave to my watch and just ran on feel whilst trying to keep it down.
Calf has locked up though which I seemed to run through ok but I can feel it a little now.
Couple of days relaxing now before Sundays half.

Pace wise, with a target of 7:30 to get sub 1:40 I guess it'd be wise to run the first few at nearer 8:00? And then what? :D Try and run 6-10 at nearer 7:15 and just hope for the best from 10-13?
 
SIS have got 12 free gels for the cost of postage (£3.99) if anyone is interested.

It’s free delivery over £10 too if you order other stuff.
 
NoNameNoNumber said:
11.2 miles, 8:35 pace, 151 hr.
Felt good, easy, in fact and ended up with two random miles at low 7:xx by accident. Tried not to be a slave to my watch and just ran on feel whilst trying to keep it down.
Calf has locked up though which I seemed to run through ok but I can feel it a little now.
Couple of days relaxing now before Sundays half.

Pace wise, with a target of 7:30 to get sub 1:40 I guess it'd be wise to run the first few at nearer 8:00? And then what? :D Try and run 6-10 at nearer 7:15 and just hope for the best from 10-13?
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Good stuff. I bet if you did such runs at 9:00 pace or so you would feel even better and see bigger benefits. You never want to be a slave to the watch to set faster paces. in fact you should use the watch in the opposite way, check that your HR is low enough and you are not running too fast. During a run I will only use the watch to slow myself down, never to speed up. The exception of course is a race where as you get tired it is important to maintain pace and work harder. But even in a race I use the watch to slow myself down a lot, at the start. .



As for pace strategy, you need to be running most of the race as close to your goal time as possible. Going faster than goal pace is very inefficient and will slow you down a lot at the end. For a half marathon you can afford to do a short warm up of about 1 to 2 miles. Start at something like 9 pace, slowly progress to 8:00, and then do 30seconds at goal pace.Try to finish this warm up about 10-15 minutes before race start so your muscles are warmed up. A few dynamic stretches/leg swings, eat a gel and a swig of water.

Starting out at about 7:50 pace, the warm up means you can be a little closer to goal than for a marathon. But this is absolutely the time to be a slave to the watch, a slave to making sure you don't go too fast. Anything faster than goal pace will really cost you time at the end. Mile 1 at 7:50, mile 2 at 7:40, mile 3 7:35, then just try and stick as close to your 7:30 goal as possible. If 7:30 doesn't feel sustainable back-off to 7:35.Don't waste energy weaving past people, you wont gain much time but will waste energy. It is then a matter of relaxing and just trying to get though the middle of the race efficiently. Check form, relax, take in the sights, eat and drink a little (but you need very little for a half, a gel at mile 6). Keep checking the watch to see that pace is not creeping up or down too much, and heart rate and effort aligns with the pace. If your heart rate is low and you feel strong then you can try going at say 7:25 after a few miles - you have less risk with half marathon than a full marathon but you don;t want to deviate too far form goal pace. Then at mile 10 it is time to reassess the situation. If it feels good you can start increasing pace, maybe 7:20. If you have paced things well and your goal is accurate, then you will be doing everything in your power just to maintain pace. If you made a mistake and were too aggressive you will be slowing down and having a horrible time. If you underestimated performance you can gain a bit of time. As you get closer you can try and push harder but remember your body is running at its limits so it might fail, e.g. cramps or muscle pain. If you can find someone to race the last mile or 2 with then it will push you faster and help take your mind off the pain.

I used to liek half marathons but as you get faster they really hurt, almost a 10K effort but twice as long. I prefer marathons because large parts of it are enjoyably and fun, only the last 6-8 miles are progressive levels of hell.
 
Can't wait lol... I used to think the same about half ironman distance but now seeing as the bike leg is running at 160-165 hr it takes a lot of focus to maintain it... The run then just becomes survival :D
Although maybe cycling at 150-155 would give me a better run... A la Cameron Wurth! I've never done a sub 2hr run in the IM.
Great advice on the run pace, I'll stick to that as a plan, it's just a training day out at the end of the day as I'm doing a 70.3 in Vietnam next Sunday (13th) so really can't afford to do any damage. I would like to get a strong 1:40 in the bag though...
If I get to 10 miles feeling fine I will pick the pace up, then bury myself for the last 3k or so... Just to see what happens :D
Forecast is warm, but even still it'll be no match for the 35ºC+ I'll be in next week B)
 
If your goal is the HIM on the 13th you probably don't want to race hard on sunday. Keep that 7:30 goal but over the last 3 miles don't push yourself. The most damage is done when trying to push your body to the limits right when it is completely fatigued and the muslces wasted. You would only gain 30-50 seconds but recovery could take a week longer. And don't be afraid to back down to 7:40 pace. Just think of your true goal race and that sunday is just a training run.

If you really race a half marathon hard it takes about 10 days to 2 weeks to fully recover unless you are a very high volume runner
 
Ah...
That scuppers that then. I'll focus on settling into the pace early and trying to hold it.
As you say, back off if needs be :)

Would it be realistic to run next weekend at the same HR as whatever this week turns out to be?
I think it'd be foolish to set a target pace for Vietnam given the heat/humidity and the self professed tagline of being one of the hottest IMs in the world... People don't run fast there. Straight 10.5km out and back along the sea front.
Thinking that HR would be elevated due to the heat and would therefore bring my pace down accordingly Good plan?
-ve split is out of the equation I think :D
 
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