Platypus' Beginners Guide to Running
- Thread starter platypus
- Start date
It was snowing in my summer ultra!
Head is actually a really important factor when trying to get your fastest marathon time. Performance is at its best between about 0 and 7*C, as temperatures get warmer you slow down. At 15C there is already quite a big difference. If you are trying to get a marathon PR that is only 2-4 minutes than your previous, then temperature is a critical factor. Barcelona is really not optimal starting 8:30 in mid-March. Temepraturs will be a n issue form the very start unless there is a cold spell. London is not greater either at average temperatures given the start time. Last year was perfect being so cold, so frustrating I had to sit by the sidelines.
Head is actually a really important factor when trying to get your fastest marathon time. Performance is at its best between about 0 and 7*C, as temperatures get warmer you slow down. At 15C there is already quite a big difference. If you are trying to get a marathon PR that is only 2-4 minutes than your previous, then temperature is a critical factor. Barcelona is really not optimal starting 8:30 in mid-March. Temepraturs will be a n issue form the very start unless there is a cold spell. London is not greater either at average temperatures given the start time. Last year was perfect being so cold, so frustrating I had to sit by the sidelines.
@Dup
Just signed up for this, only £20 and it's right on your doorstep!
https://www.pendlewayinaday.co.uk/p/route.html
Just signed up for this, only £20 and it's right on your doorstep!
https://www.pendlewayinaday.co.uk/p/route.html
Associate
- Joined
- 5 Nov 2004
- Posts
- 789
- Location
- Herts
If they are going to cancel London I hope they do it soon...but sods law states they will wait until I've done three or four 20 mile training runs before they do so...
@D.P.
Given i've just signed up for a 45ish mile run (next Feb so not soon!), what kind of weekly mileage is usually a good base to be doing to cover that? I know with a marathon they suggest around 30 miles/week so the same logic would suggest about 50/week.
What would also be the longest runs you'd want to do? I imagine in training the last thing you want to be doing is running a 35 mile route given the recovery that'd be needed afterwards. Do you stop around the 20 mile point and then just work on the assumption that by doing enough of those runs it gives you enough of a base to carry on for the full race?
Given i've just signed up for a 45ish mile run (next Feb so not soon!), what kind of weekly mileage is usually a good base to be doing to cover that? I know with a marathon they suggest around 30 miles/week so the same logic would suggest about 50/week.
What would also be the longest runs you'd want to do? I imagine in training the last thing you want to be doing is running a 35 mile route given the recovery that'd be needed afterwards. Do you stop around the 20 mile point and then just work on the assumption that by doing enough of those runs it gives you enough of a base to carry on for the full race?
I personally have no idea, but if i was to make a guess, I would work out the percentages for a marathon plan and then scale things according to that. Then, when I failed to do it because I was too tired etc. I would probably come here and ask D.P. or look at stuff like
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/tra...eek-50-mile-ultra-marathon-training-schedule/
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/tra...eek-50-mile-ultra-marathon-training-schedule/
Hence why the first thing i typed in my post was the tag DP in 
Good link though, seems to confirm my thoughts whereby long runs are around 20 and it's better to do 2 x 15 mile runs over a weekend than to do 1 25 mile run.
I'm not entirely sure where i'll plan on fitting these long runs in. It already annoys the wife when i go out for 1 longer run at the weekend and start putting off jobs around the house!
Good link though, seems to confirm my thoughts whereby long runs are around 20 and it's better to do 2 x 15 mile runs over a weekend than to do 1 25 mile run.
I'm not entirely sure where i'll plan on fitting these long runs in. It already annoys the wife when i go out for 1 longer run at the weekend and start putting off jobs around the house!
Last edited:
Best of luck for Barcelona and hopefully London too. What sort of time are you looking at for a PR? Must be hard putting in all that training for maybe only one or two shots at feeling like you've had any reward back.
Hope it all goes to plan.
Hope your training goes well. Am interested to see a reply to this too. I'm still just focussing on getting my weekly volume up by aiming to run most days at an easy pace, but eventually this would be the sort of thing I could see myself potentially training for.
It's the lack of structure to training i struggle with. I enjoy just getting out and running and if i feel good i'll run a bit faster/longer, if i feel crap i'll run slower/shorter.
All the plans you see require structured training and whilst i'm sure there's a reason for it, i wonder how much i'll lose by not following something specific.
In theory i'd be better to try and do more speed work to get my pacing a little faster (continuing to lose weight should also help). If i can get back to ~8:30 min/miles then it means i'm covering 7 miles and hour instead of 6 and will help increase mileage!
All the plans you see require structured training and whilst i'm sure there's a reason for it, i wonder how much i'll lose by not following something specific.
In theory i'd be better to try and do more speed work to get my pacing a little faster (continuing to lose weight should also help). If i can get back to ~8:30 min/miles then it means i'm covering 7 miles and hour instead of 6 and will help increase mileage!
I like to think that the 27C temperatures are what stopped me from being under 5 Hrs in 2018.
It may have been due to me being too slow though
27C is massively too hot to run at all close to PR. You can use online calculators to look at the effects, but even going above 1-12C start impacting performance. Above 20C is quite detrimental. It is also a bit weight and speed dependent. faster runners generate more cooling airflow, heavier runners trap more heat and have a lower skin-surface to weight ratio so can;t cool as effectively This tends to mean the super skinny elites felt the heat a little less, but your mid-pack runner really suffers. The back of pack are too slow and low heat generation to notice as much.
I love 230 mile runs!. For me it is purely about the enjoyment of going for a PR after 6 months hard training. All those early morning mid-winter running in the dark, rain and wind. Skipping the office party open-bar so i could get my LR in the snow and rain the next morning. These sacrifices are not fun, but it part of reaching a goal which is fun.
This is especially annoying for me because it has been several years since I could enter a Marathon with good conditions:
- April 2017: Jersey shore marathon was 20C and I had diarrhea all night before and morning before race start, bad cramps. Just got und 3H but my tune-up races were amazing and I was totally in 2:52 shape.
- November 2017: Richmond. Short training cycle dogged by sickness, especially taper but felt good for a 2:52. However, 30-30MPH head winds made thigns tough especially as in the windiest parts I was totally alone, got a 2:56:16. Going by how hard it was to run in to the head winds and how much time I lost I was definitely in 2:52 shape. It was also -5C, so it was friggin' cold which also doesn't help
- April 2018: Boston USA. One fo the worst weather conditions imaginable. Temperatures about 4C but rain so heavy you could swim. Head-width the whole way, gusting 40MPH. I should have gone for a PR but after 8 miles I got really scared I would DNF from hypothermia. The rain and wind was so bad at times I couldn't see. Something lie 80% of the male elite field DNF'd . Again felt like I was in a solid 2:52 shape, possibly 2:50
- May 2018: Redemption at Geneva? Well only a few weeks after Boston so not optimal. 18C start temperature so I tried to be conservative with 2:55 goal and hope for a negative split. temperatures increased to 25C and I was just dying. Held on for a whopping 1 second PR: 2:56:15!
- April 2019 London:. Best training cycle ever, every workout went perfectly. Pace and HR were best i have ever seen, watch was taunting me with a VO2MAx at 60. Then bam, stress fracture out of now where at the start of taper. So weird because the training schedule was no harder than previous cycles, in fact I took ore rest days but I was less sick, kids were less sick, overall more consistent. I didn't have any minor niggles so got to complete all my planned workouts and LRS. Plan would have been to go for 2:50 since London is flat.
- Jan 2020: Merica Marathon Spain, DNS as I just wasn't in shape and so I didn't even bother to sign up.
I think I will sign up for Barcelona but I know I am not at the fitness level I want to get a PR. Probably 2:58 shape on a good course with low temps. Barcelona will likely be too hot and is not very fast.
In previous cycles I think I could get in the 2:50-2:52 range under good conditions (cool, no wind, flat course). But this cycle I have just struggled to get my pace & HR where they were previous cycles. Despite putting in the same training volumes and even trying a few changes so as introducing intervals earlier. I've been speaking with some friends who are run coaches and they don;t have a good answer. It could be age, as I am right at the point where we expect a slight degradation each year Life has been stressful the last 6 months and that might also take the edge off things. I have trained to get back in to 2:52 shape so it is possible on the day I will realize the potential but none of my runs are showing that right now.
Last edited:
Hence why the first thing i typed in my post was the tag DP in
Good link though, seems to confirm my thoughts whereby long runs are around 20 and it's better to do 2 x 15 mile runs over a weekend than to do 1 25 mile run.
I'm not entirely sure where i'll plan on fitting these long runs in. It already annoys the wife when i go out for 1 longer run at the weekend and start putting off jobs around the house!
at a high level, an Ulramarathon training cycle is similar to a Marathon in terms of volume and structure. It help a lot to have more running years under your feet, e.g. a marathon you could training for from never running in 1 year as a bucket list item, but an ultra helps to have done 1 to 2 marathons first to get an idea of LRs and volume.
There is less need for any speed work unless you are elite or doing a very flat road ultra. Conversely, most ultra are on trails with hills so the biggest change is to try and train on that surface as much as possible. The pace is very different, so you have to get used to slowing things way down, and simply hiking up hills. Depedning on the course, things can be quite technical so running down rocky muddy trails is an important skill, more important than any intervals.
Run volume doesn't increase that much, and like a marathon increased volume will fairly directly lead to faster times but not necessarily a higher chance of finishing. For 50Mile I would hope to do more like 35-40MPW for the 6-8 weeks leading to the race as a minimum. However, if you are running on slow trails then covering that distance can take much longer.
Long runs are more important than in a marathon, but they don't scale much higher. If you do a LR on a road then 20-25 miles is plenty. On trails and hills this can be reduced a but, so 16-20miles is a lot and liekly will take longer than 25 on the road. LR that match the race conditions in terms of height gain and surface are important. The LRs are more about time on your feet and getting yourself very tired, depleting glycogen and getting used to eating and drinking.
While many runners swear by back to back LRs, e.g. 20miles saturday and 15-20 sunday. I find this fairly pointless and quite dangerous, and the limited research shows there is not a lot to be gained if anything, especially for races under 100 miles. I never bother with these, but I do often run the day after a LR, but just a regular every day run at the most. IOf I went particularly hard on the LR then I definitely take a rest.
At 50miles, you quite likely start or finish in the dark unless it is a very flat fast road course. So training in the dark with the headlamp is important. This solves the time issue, because you can do your LR starting at 5am , or go out after dinner and run into midnight/2am etc. Running around thw woods and hills in the middle of the night, tired and needing sleep is perfect ultra training. Instead of the back to back LRs you can split things up, so for example run friday night for 4-5 hours in to the dark (plenty of hiking is fine). Get up earlyish saturday after far too little sleep and dor another 1hr before the family is active. Do all your day chores and when you feel like crashing on the sofa to Netflix, go back our for another 2 hours in the evening. Pace doesn't matter, walk it if need be. Then hopefully get a lseep in on Sunday.
Unlike a road marathon, time on your feet matters. With my family I can do things like go for a LR saturday at 5am, get back for an early lunch and then take the kids on their bikes to the park, then doing the shopping and then a couple of hours in the garden. All that extra activity is detrimental to running the fastest road race, but is perfect for an ultra where some many more muscles are used and you have to train for a fatigued body
I guess your post just shows the fine margins when you start getting to those kind of times.
That's been the benefit of getting a new watch, i'm constantly getting PR's
yeah, it has been quite a change. I debuted at 3:27, then went 3:13 6 months later, 3:03 6 months after, and then it has been this very gradual reduction. A lot more work to try and take off just a few minutes, and everything becomes weather and course dependent.
Superb post above (not going to quote it given the size). You should know by now that when i ask a question you never need to open the post with "at a high level"!
The profile isn't too bad, think there's around 6000ft of elevation over the run. The main challenge will be Pendle Hill at around the 40 mile mark. So i guess the best training will be going out and trying to do routes where i have a hefty climb towards the end of training runs to try and replicate the conditions.
In my head, my goal is to get consistency now around the 30mile/week mark with the aim to then increase to around 50 in the last 12 weeks. I have 11 months to go, so plenty of time. I say this often but my training always seems to fall apart for one reason or another around 8 weeks before the race and as such my actual race is often a little disappointing. I'd like to try and tackle this the right way because the last thing i need is to fall apart at mile 30 and then have another 15 to go!
Today is my first attempt of a double day. Got 5 miles in this morning, and then the plan is to do about the same tonight. I think this is the best way for me to get my volume up. It's easy enough to get out for a 2-3hr run at the weekend, but midweek anything over an hour gets a bit trickier without a detrimental impact on family/work.
The profile isn't too bad, think there's around 6000ft of elevation over the run. The main challenge will be Pendle Hill at around the 40 mile mark. So i guess the best training will be going out and trying to do routes where i have a hefty climb towards the end of training runs to try and replicate the conditions.
In my head, my goal is to get consistency now around the 30mile/week mark with the aim to then increase to around 50 in the last 12 weeks. I have 11 months to go, so plenty of time. I say this often but my training always seems to fall apart for one reason or another around 8 weeks before the race and as such my actual race is often a little disappointing. I'd like to try and tackle this the right way because the last thing i need is to fall apart at mile 30 and then have another 15 to go!
Today is my first attempt of a double day. Got 5 miles in this morning, and then the plan is to do about the same tonight. I think this is the best way for me to get my volume up. It's easy enough to get out for a 2-3hr run at the weekend, but midweek anything over an hour gets a bit trickier without a detrimental impact on family/work.
Plan on hiking that hill at the. In fact, you will hike any hill that will raise your HR above easy effort which pretty much means anything beyond the gentlest blips. Practice the hiking so it is fast and efficient, not a slow doddle.
Double runs work well. You have less recovery, but each run is less stressful so it can balance out. Also definitely easier to get volume up. I used to do them a lot, was the only way to hit 90MPW consistently.
Double runs work well. You have less recovery, but each run is less stressful so it can balance out. Also definitely easier to get volume up. I used to do them a lot, was the only way to hit 90MPW consistently.
Yeah, i think i should be ble to get ~15 miles in one day in the week by doing double runs, then with 2 other shorter ~6 mile runs and a longer run at the weekend it easily gets me up to 40ish
I just need to start increasing my short runs from 3-4 miles to 5-6 miles i think.
I just need to start increasing my short runs from 3-4 miles to 5-6 miles i think.