Plex Server advice

pioneer2000 · 29 Jun 2021 at 12:28

I'm specifically referring to local streaming, not remote.

I figure a NAS serving up the files to my existing Nvidia Shield is a better solution than having my desktop chugging away 24/7, but obviously open to alternative solutions if they make sense.

Currently I have a 920+ sitting here in the box but not paying through the nose for over-priced storage right now.

Avalon · 29 Jun 2021 at 15:15

pioneer2000 said:
I'm specifically referring to local streaming, not remote.

I figure a NAS serving up the files to my existing Nvidia Shield is a better solution than having my desktop chugging away 24/7, but obviously open to alternative solutions if they make sense.

Currently I have a 920+ sitting here in the box but not paying through the nose for over-priced storage right now.

I’m not really following your logic on the ‘saving’ front. So far you’ve spent anything up to £499 on a 920+ which is sat in a box and saving you nothing, drive prices are not going to drop significantly this year and I wouldn’t imagine they’ll be significantly cheaper for a good part of next year. By then your 920+ is superseded by a 921+ and you have still saved nothing and are a year down on warranty/support. The 920+ is rated at circa 32w by Synology, a modern desktop is 40-60w at idle, less if you actually tweak it. It’s potentially a decade (from when you actually start using it) to break even on ‘saving’ via power usage with the 920+. That also assumes that you don’t have your PC on anyway - something needs to encode that content prior to storing it, so it’s not even that clear cut.

In terms of playback I have both local and remote storage, it can take longer to start playing local files if the drive needs to spin up than remote, on an already spun up drive it’s anything from 1-2 seconds extra to start playback, but can be less depending on the file size, in all the years doing this, I can’t recall anyone other than me asking the question. Either way, nothing at all to do with the content, it’s the WAN speed and the buffer level you set for rclone - 4K REMUX HDR plays fine from remote sources.

whitecrook · 29 Jun 2021 at 18:18

i have a 920+ on the way. I already have 4x 8tb drives to go into when it arrives. The NVMe cache drives are supposedly useless so i've read.

I already have a dell r210 doing duties as a hyperv2019 host but really just looking forward to having something that works without all the need for configuration etc, and It should be cheaper to run as well by about 50% or so. this is gonna get decommissioned and sold on.

So the 920+ is gonna stream HD content around the house no problem at all so ive read. not bothered about 4K. 4k content can be played back directly since the main media TVs already have a pc connected to them .

casper_uk · 29 Jun 2021 at 19:07

I would love something like the 920+ for a jellyfin server, but it seems a lot of money for weak hardware. Is the software really that good? Is it better to build your own server? But then again, do they sell cases with the same form factor as the 920+?

whitecrook · 29 Jun 2021 at 19:50

casper_uk said:
I would love something like the 920+ for a jellyfin server, but it seems a lot of money for weak hardware. Is the software really that good? Is it better to build your own server? But then again, do they sell cases with the same form factor as the 920+?

Rolling your own is good if you have the time and skillz and don't mind fixing stuff setting stuff up you can save some money, but only if your time is worthless. Buying a unit like this is a standard solution, great software i can install this and get on with my life.

pioneer2000 · 29 Jun 2021 at 19:54

Avalon said:
I’m not really following your logic on the ‘saving’ front. So far you’ve spent anything up to £499 on a 920+ which is sat in a box and saving you nothing, drive prices are not going to drop significantly this year and I wouldn’t imagine they’ll be significantly cheaper for a good part of next year. By then your 920+ is superseded by a 921+ and you have still saved nothing and are a year down on warranty/support. The 920+ is rated at circa 32w by Synology, a modern desktop is 40-60w at idle, less if you actually tweak it. It’s potentially a decade (from when you actually start using it) to break even on ‘saving’ via power usage with the 920+. That also assumes that you don’t have your PC on anyway - something needs to encode that content prior to storing it, so it’s not even that clear cut.

In terms of playback I have both local and remote storage, it can take longer to start playing local files if the drive needs to spin up than remote, on an already spun up drive it’s anything from 1-2 seconds extra to start playback, but can be less depending on the file size, in all the years doing this, I can’t recall anyone other than me asking the question. Either way, nothing at all to do with the content, it’s the WAN speed and the buffer level you set for rclone - 4K REMUX HDR plays fine from remote sources.

It was £400 on Prime day so seemed worth picking up on the off chance I might use it. So why does anyone use a Nas for Plex if their existing pc is always a better / cheaper option?

Whilst the legalities of locally hosting ripped movies is questionable, I’m sure hosting them remotely on someone else’s server is even more dubious. I’m predominantly focused on high bit rate 4K Atmos files so we’re talking 50GB+ per film. I doubt it is worth my time trying to upload and manage these from a cloud service.

Perhaps I should just stick to hosting from my desktop, but it’s incredibly noisy and hot running considering that it’s a Xeon based machine with a 980ti and 8 HHD’s, I would have thought it’s not really suited to 24/7 running.

whitecrook · 29 Jun 2021 at 20:00

pioneer2000 said:
It was £400 on Prime day so seemed worth picking up on the off chance I might use it. So why does anyone use a Nas for Plex if their existing pc is always a better / cheaper option?

Whilst the legalities of locally hosting ripped movies is questionable, I’m sure hosting them remotely on someone else’s server is even more dubious. I’m predominantly focused on high bit rate 4K Atmos files so we’re talking 50GB+ per film. I doubt it is worth my time trying to upload and manage these from a cloud service.

Perhaps I should just stick to hosting from my desktop, but it’s incredibly noisy and hot running considering that it’s a Xeon based machine with a 980ti and 8 HHD’s, I would have thought it’s not really suited to 24/7 running.

you can use the nas to store the files.

then you can use a player on a powerful ( 4K decode capable) device to play them back., just like regular files.

If you want to 'stream' them using plex or something you can do the same and it will stream 1:1 no transcoding. but I think this rules out many mid/low end tvs ? ?

The tricky part is when you want to transcode a 4K big-ass file into something you can watch on your ipad or something x 3 becuase every memebr in the family wants to watch something different. or on a low end TV.

I don't really see the last one as a problem. since i have decent players in places where i watch content.

As for people saying Synolgy , NO, build a system, it's classic example of this "While beginners generally benefit from a more generic, simpler model to start with, can I just take this opportunity to recommend this ultra-niche, utterly esoteric model to bolster my forum credentials?"
"

from this thread : https://www.overclockers.co.uk/foru...-forum-advice-for-beginners-in-full.18931829/

everybody always has something fast/cheaper/bigger/whatever . Boasting that something could be 'plug and play' easy is seen as weak.

casper_uk · 29 Jun 2021 at 20:50

whitecrook said:
Rolling your own is good if you have the time and skillz and don't mind fixing stuff setting stuff up you can save some money, but only if your time is worthless. Buying a unit like this is a standard solution, great software i can install this and get on with my life.

I haven't got a clue really as never looked into having a NAS before. A lot of people recommend synology from what I can see, i just didn't understand why when the hardware didn't look that good. It seems it's the software that shines, allowing people to install and walk away like you say. That does sound appealing, more research for me to do I guess. Pitty the 920+ is still not £400

pioneer2000 · 29 Jun 2021 at 22:46

casper_uk said:
I haven't got a clue really as never looked into having a NAS before. A lot of people recommend synology from what I can see, i just didn't understand why when the hardware didn't look that good. It seems it's the software that shines, allowing people to install and walk away like you say. That does sound appealing, more research for me to do I guess. Pitty the 920+ is still not £400

I’m curious if it’s actually possible to build a unit currently that’s significantly better at £400… most components are out of stock!

jokerguv · 30 Jun 2021 at 09:08

whitecrook said:
As for people saying Synolgy , NO, build a system, it's classic example of this "While beginners generally benefit from a more generic, simpler model to start with, can I just take this opportunity to recommend this ultra-niche, utterly esoteric model to bolster my forum credentials?"
"

from this thread : https://www.overclockers.co.uk/foru...-forum-advice-for-beginners-in-full.18931829/

everybody always has something fast/cheaper/bigger/whatever . Boasting that something could be 'plug and play' easy is seen as weak.

That's not a great example in this case because rolling your own for NAS/Plex duties isn't an ultra-niche, utterly-esoteric model. Its actually sound advice for anyone who might not even be aware about it in the first place or hasn't yet considered limitations/upgrade costs of closed systems that they could run into later.

Also it isn't that hard to setup, I mean if anyone's buying a NAS, HDDs, setting it all up, making Plex accessible across multiple devices then they're already putting in the legwork so why not consider the option of an upgradeable system at the expense of screwing in some additional hardware and OS install.

whitecrook · 30 Jun 2021 at 10:34

pioneer2000 said:
I’m curious if it’s actually possible to build a unit currently that’s significantly better at £400… most components are out of stock!

yeah depends on definition of 'better' I doubt you will get anything as small/compact, quiet,

jokerguv said:
That's not a great example in this case because rolling your own for NAS/Plex duties isn't an ultra-niche, utterly-esoteric model. Its actually sound advice for anyone who might not even be aware about it in the first place or hasn't yet considered limitations/upgrade costs of closed systems that they could run into later.

Also it isn't that hard to setup, I mean if anyone's buying a NAS, HDDs, setting it all up, making Plex accessible across multiple devices then they're already putting in the legwork so why not consider the option of an upgradeable system at the expense of screwing in some additional hardware and OS install.

Brilliant! ‘It isn’t that hard to setup’. ‘Screwing in some additional hardware and os install’.
Lol. Different planet mate.

Changing a spare tyre on a car isnt that hard to do. All you need Is some additional hardware and just swap it over. Anyone can do it.

jokerguv · 30 Jun 2021 at 15:00

whitecrook said:
Brilliant! ‘It isn’t that hard to setup’. ‘Screwing in some additional hardware and os install’.
Lol. Different planet mate.

Changing a spare tyre on a car isnt that hard to do. All you need Is some additional hardware and just swap it over. Anyone can do it.

Completely agree with the general sentiment that this is somebody from another planet.

The point was that anyone who's interested in a computer on which they know Windows isn't gonna pop up when they hit the power button, they're already on that planet as far as usual folks go and for these interested people the idea of setting up own NAS/Plex server should be reasonable not niche.

For usual folks, I guess a Plex server is probably the absolute least of their concerns and if they require data backup (big if and that too for really important stuff) they'll just buy an external USB and get on with it. Their not gonna bother with a dedicated computer for backup, especially one that doesn't run Windows and supposedly requires alien knowledge

.

pioneer2000 · 1 Jul 2021 at 21:16

Ok, so £480 or so seems to get:

Fractal Node micro-atx case
16gb ram
I3
Motherboard
550w psu

So “better” but not sure if it’s worth sacrificing the ease of setup and use and software of the Synology?

Armageus · 2 Jul 2021 at 09:46

pioneer2000 said:
So “better” but not sure if it’s worth sacrificing the ease of setup and use and software of the Synology?

Personally no it isn't really "better", just different.

The main benefits to me that a self build could bring are ECC support (for ZFS), and 10Gb. Equally the majority of self-builds miss basic things like hot-swappable drives, and the polish that an integrated solution brings (things like identifier lights on failed drives).

I went for the Synology route, and whilst I'm not even using a fraction of it's capabilities (just NAS and Media Server via Emby), it "just works", and will still likely "just work" as a NAS in 10+ years time.
For VM's / Docker images etc, I have a Lenovo Tiny running ESXi that sites on top of my DS1520+. Between the two of them, they use less power, take up less space and produce less noise than an equivalent self build.

whitecrook · 2 Jul 2021 at 09:58

Armageus said:
Personally no it isn't really "better", just different.

The main benefits to me that a self build could bring are ECC support (for ZFS), and 10Gb. Equally the majority of self-builds miss basic things like hot-swappable drives, and the polish that an integrated solution brings (things like identifier lights on failed drives).

I went for the Synology route, and whilst I'm not even using a fraction of it's capabilities (just NAS and Media Server via Emby), it "just works", and will still likely "just work" as a NAS in 10+ years time.
For VM's / Docker images etc, I have a Lenovo Tiny running ESXi that sites on top of my DS1520+. Between the two of them, they use less power, take up less space and produce less noise than an equivalent self build.

nice. Agree on the self build no point unless you ‘do it properly’

what lenovo tiny do you use? Anything to consider hardware wise when getting one for similar task?

Armageus · 2 Jul 2021 at 10:22

whitecrook said:
what lenovo tiny do you use? Anything to consider hardware wise when getting one for similar task?

M900 Tiny - with a Skylake Pentium G4500T - 16GB DDR4 RAM, 512Gb NVME and a 500gb SATA 2.5" SSD.
Currently runs several VMs including:- pihole, a dedicated vm for docker (which currently includes LanCache, and YCast), as well as whatever I may be testing e.g. TVheadend, newer versions of Emby etc.

There's various different models, but they are pretty much all similar - the M900 I got because it was very cheap at the time (think I paid something like £40 from ebay). I've plenty of experience with these "micro" PCs, as we've used 100's of HP Minis at work (800 G1/G2/G3, and 705 G4/5's)

Personally as long as it takes DDR4 then there isn't much in it - the older Haswell/DDR3 models are a bit more limited CPU wise (and most were limited to 35w CPU parts e.g. 2 core/4 thread i5's

).

https://www.servethehome.com/introducing-project-tinyminimicro-home-lab-revolution/

whitecrook · 2 Jul 2021 at 11:00

Armageus said:
M900 Tiny - with a Skylake Pentium G4500T - 16GB DDR4 RAM, 512Gb NVME and a 500gb SATA 2.5" SSD.
Currently runs several VMs including:- pihole, a dedicated vm for docker (which currently includes LanCache, and YCast), as well as whatever I may be testing e.g. TVheadend, newer versions of Emby etc.

There's various different models, but they are pretty much all similar - the M900 I got because it was very cheap at the time (think I paid something like £40 from ebay). I've plenty of experience with these "micro" PCs, as we've used 100's of HP Minis at work (800 G1/G2/G3, and 705 G4/5's)

Personally as long as it takes DDR4 then there isn't much in it - the older Haswell/DDR3 models are a bit more limited CPU wise (and most were limited to 35w CPU parts e.g. 2 core/4 thread i5's ).

https://www.servethehome.com/introducing-project-tinyminimicro-home-lab-revolution/

Great ! I saw these a while back and they look ideal.

casper_uk · 2 Jul 2021 at 21:53

Armageus said:
Personally no it isn't really "better", just different.

The main benefits to me that a self build could bring are ECC support (for ZFS), and 10Gb. Equally the majority of self-builds miss basic things like hot-swappable drives, and the polish that an integrated solution brings (things like identifier lights on failed drives).

I went for the Synology route, and whilst I'm not even using a fraction of it's capabilities (just NAS and Media Server via Emby), it "just works", and will still likely "just work" as a NAS in 10+ years time.
For VM's / Docker images etc, I have a Lenovo Tiny running ESXi that sites on top of my DS1520+. Between the two of them, they use less power, take up less space and produce less noise than an equivalent self build.

Sorry for another question, i thought the point of having a cpu and synology on the nas was to run dockers and VM's? How come you use a lenovo tiny? Just had a quick look on ebay and it seems they have gone up

Armageus · 2 Jul 2021 at 22:01

casper_uk said:
Sorry for another question, i thought the point of having a cpu and synology on the nas was to run dockers and VM's? How come you use a lenovo tiny? Just had a quick look on ebay and it seems they have gone up

Because the Synology web interface uses certain ports that pihole needs under docker, and I didn't want to mess around having to SSH'ing into it to make unsupported changes.
I could run docker in a VM on the Synology, but I needed VMware Esxi for a VM anyway (as Synology VM's do not support usb device passthrough), so made sense to run all VMs there.

http://tonylawrence.com/posts/unix/synology/free-your-synology-ports/

casper_uk · 2 Jul 2021 at 22:38

Armageus said:
Because the Synology web interface uses certain ports that pihole needs under docker, and I didn't want to mess around having to SSH'ing into it to make unsupported changes.
I could run docker in a VM on the Synology, but I needed VMware Esxi for a VM anyway (as Synology VM's do not support usb device passthrough), so made sense to run all VMs there.

http://tonylawrence.com/posts/unix/synology/free-your-synology-ports/

Thanks for the reply and link. It gets more complicated as it goes on it seems