Plumbers/Sparkies - Dual 24Hr Time Clock to Hive Install

[Gaijin]

Hi guys,

My heating and hot water is currently operated independently using two 24hr time clocks respectively (APT IMM24) which is slightly surprising for a house built in 2000 - but I understand that the previous owner was reliant on a boiler multi fuel stove that he ran 24/7.

I'd like to convert the two 24 hr timers to a more modern setup, and the Hive (Heating plus hot water) is currently on offer from Amazon.

Would anyone please be able to help with the wiring?

This is the wiring diagram below the APT IMM24:



And this I believe are the diagrams for the Hive:



Assuming that the Permanent Live, Permanent Neutral and Earth are self explanatory. I'm assuming that the Live out ( Pin 1 in the top picture) from the IMM24's are essentially Normally Open switched lives, and would just go respectively to 3 and 4 on the 2b diagram?

If so, is anything required in pins 1 and 2 in picture 2b?

Thanks in advance.

 

[FlyingFish]

The wiring part is easy, you might need to find out why such high rated (Watts) switching is required, as I'm fairly sure (not checked) that a hive cannot switch 3.5kw.

Mick

 

[Gaijin]

Thanks Mick - just to be clear - so the wiring comments I made sound ok?

I doubt the APT is switching 3.5kW - I read it as just a theoretical maximum for the APT timer no?

 

[FlyingFish]

Those timers are usually used to switch electric heater elements (3kw heaters). Not really required for normal gas water and radiators.

The hive uses a fairly standard backplate, depends on what plumbing plan you have, as to what control you need. Search for a Honeywell wiring guide, and that will show you the different plans (S,S+,Y etc) and how to wire them up to your backplate.
Mick

 

[Gaijin]

I should have provided more detail - the boiler is an external (to the house - just outside the back door) Vortex oil burner enclosure (Riello RDB) as we live in the sticks. It heats the water for the rads and also and passes it through an external cylinder in the house hot press/airing cupboard for hot water.

The hot water time clock is is just an separate immersion heater wired to said APT timer if we want hot water but don't want to switch on the burner (in summer for instance).

Hope this clarifies.

 

[the_dead_parrot]

Is that powering an electric immersion heater in the cylinder? I guess so by the imm part of the model code. If that's the case you won't be able to use hive to control it. The amps will be too high under load. I have seen 3a system timers fitted as immersion timers and they don't last very long.

What are the timers controlling? Is there a diverter valve for heating and hot water? Or is it a gravity hot water, pumped heating system?

 

[Gaijin]

Is that powering an electric immersion heater in the cylinder? I guess so by the imm part of the model code. If that's the case you won't be able to use hive to control it. The amps will be too high under load. I have seen 3a system timers fitted as immersion timers and they don't last very long.

I've been doing some reading and it seems you're right:

https://hivehome.uservoice.com/foru...ggestions/6912591-immersion-heater-controller
A lot of people are mitigating this by using a Hive Smart Plug and using this to control the immersion (rightly or wrongly).

What are the timers controlling? Is there a diverter valve for heating and hot water? Or is it a gravity hot water, pumped heating system?

Basically if we ignore the immersion heater for now, the boiler is an external Riello RDB Vortex enclosure like this:



It heats the water which flows through the rads and into a coil in the hot water cylinder. It will heat the hot water cylinder all the time when the boiler is on so there is no diverter if that is what you mean. The hot water cylinder is located on the ground floor. There is a small (50 cm cubed) water tank in the attic space but nothing else.

The only control for the boiler/heating is the 24 hr ring time clock.

Hope that clarifies!

 

[bremen1874]

No existing room thermostat?

 

[Gaijin]

Nope. As mentioned I think the previous owner had the boiler installed for emergencies. There is a large 18kW boiler stove in one of the rooms which is hooked into the heating loop and he used to have it going 24/7. Problem is, the house has about 13 rads connected to it and to be brutally honest, we've never been able to get rads anything more than lukewarm using it.

 

[bremen1874]

If it was running 24/7 with no real temperature control I don't think you'd want the radiators very hot.

 

[FlyingFish]

I think your best course of action is to get someone qualified and competent to assess your system and arrange a plan to get your heating and water functioning and performing correctly. I'd worry about smart controls as a secondary concern. A smart stat isn't going to fix luke warm radiators or non zoned dhw/Ch.

Mick

 

[Gaijin]

.....to get your heating and water functioning and performing correctly.

A smart stat isn't going to fix luke warm radiators or non zoned dhw/Ch.

The system is functioning correctly as designed. It's just simplistic and crude due to the previous owner intending to use it as a secondary system. Effectively we have heating from the boiler and hot water from the boiler and/or immersion heater. When I spoke of lukewarm radiators, this is to do with using the multi-fuel boiler stove as the sole heating appliance. It requires the stove to be roaring 24/7 and we can't do that as whereas the previous owner had someone in the house 24/7, we go out etc. and don't want to leave the stove running when we are not there. When the oil boiler is used, the rads are as hot as you would normally expect.

I think your best course of action is to get someone qualified and competent to assess your system and arrange a plan to get your heating and water functioning and performing correctly.

You're certainly right about getting someones in thinking about it, I have a guy coming round in the next few weeks to terminate the connections for my electric gate setup - i'll ask him to take a look.

I just like to try and learn about these sorts of things, it's interesting and having a consensus like this also gives me a better understanding so I don't get ripped off etc. Also gives me a better understanding of the house as there was no documentation handed over about anything.

If it was running 24/7 with no real temperature control I don't think you'd want the radiators very hot.

The external unit has a thermostat for the water temperature coming from the boiler, but there is no thermostat regulating the temperature in the house.

 

[FlyingFish]

It sounds like you need a proper dual fuel setup that changes from one source to another automatically (they do exist, or can be made up) this would allow you to take heat from the multifuel appliance when it's there, and then revert to using the oil boiler when it's not. The oil setup sounds like it needs converting into an S or Y plan (depending on size) and this would allow you to gain timed and temperature control over both, and use something like a nest or hive. The immersion switching could then be done separate by a timer or given to your smart control through the use of a relay (due to the load kw).

Not sure if you're serious about getting the electric gate man to look at your heating?

Mick

 

[FlyingFish]

Ps. If you don't want to rearrange/correct the plumbing, you could use the 2ch hive to control the heating (oil) and water (electric immersion with relay) and leave it at that. A bit DIY, and you need to know how to wire up heating boilers and controls, but it might meet your current needs

 

[Gaijin]

It sounds like you need a proper dual fuel setup that changes from one source to another automatically (they do exist, or can be made up) this would allow you to take heat from the multifuel appliance when it's there, and then revert to using the oil boiler when it's not. The oil setup sounds like it needs converting into an S or Y plan (depending on size) and this would allow you to gain timed and temperature control over both, and use something like a nest or hive. The immersion switching could then be done separate by a timer or given to your smart control through the use of a relay (due to the load kw).

Not sure if you're serious about getting the electric gate man to look at your heating?

I think i'm doing a terrible job of explaining myself!

I'm not really interested in the boiler stove for heating water - it's in a bad location - a room that the previous owner used as a sitting room, but we are using as a dining room. We'll just never use it to be honest. If possible it can stay as part of the loop, but we'll just use the stove occasionally for heating the room it's in.

I've noted about what you are saying about the S plan and Y plan. It's good to know. I'm going to see if I can map out the heating myself for my own information.

Not sure if you're serious about getting the electric gate man to look at your heating?

I should have been clearer! - I said "I have a guy coming round in the next few weeks to terminate the connections for my electric gate setup" - He's a fully qualified electrician, but for that task is just terminating an SWA cable i've laid (in red ESB high impact conduit) into a IP65 outdoor enclosure, and then connecting the other end to my garage consumer unit via a suitably rated MCB/RCBO. He's not a gate technician, nor is he actually installing the gate!

This is the exact boiler enclosure we have by the way - the "Outdoor Vortex 120-155" model, 36-46kW:

http://grantengineering.ie/high-eff...-brand/vortex-oil-condensing-outdoor-boilers/

And this is the manual if it provides any more clarity:

http://grantengineering.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/GRANT-Vortex-Module-Technical-Manual.pdf

 

[Gaijin]

Ps. If you don't want to rearrange/correct the plumbing, you could use the 2ch hive to control the heating (oil) and water (electric immersion with relay) and leave it at that. A bit DIY, and you need to know how to wire up heating boilers and controls, but it might meet your current needs

Thanks, essentially this is exactly what I want to do - I wanted to know if the Hive could be put in to replace the 24 hr time clock controlling the boiler, and since finding out about the inability of the Hive to control the immersion directly, from researching online, people either wire in the relay DIY as you mention, or wire the immersion into a smartplug and control the immersion from an app that way (by switching on the smartplug and hence immersion by using the Hive app)

 

[FlyingFish]

Ok cool, yes you can wire the ch side of the hive into the switched live of the boiler, the pump control should be left to the boiler along with the permanent LNE, assuming the boiler is wired correctly as per the instructions (you've linked above).

Talk to your sparky about having the hive dhw channel switching a correctly rated relay to power the immersion. This part is important, and should be an easy task for him. You risk a fire and damaging equipment if you try something else. This is mainly because you will be using your immersion more than most people as you can't use the oil to heat the water on its own. So in summer your immersion will be used a lot. As you won't be using the heating.

Have fun
Mick

 

[jpsmith16]

Hi OP

Sorry to resurrect old thread. I have the same CH and HW set up as you and am considering replacing my APT IMM24 timer on the boiler with Hive. I’m only focussed on the boiler. The immersion has a separate timer and will remain that way

Are you able to tell me the APT -> Hive Single Channel receiver plate wiring move you did please? Something like below or a picture would be great if possible?

Thanks in advance

John

APT Pin 1 = ...
APT Pin 2 = ...
APT Pin 3 = ...

 

[Gaijin]

Are you able to tell me the APT -> Hive Single Channel receiver plate wiring move you did please? Something like below or a picture would be great if possible?

APT Pin 1 = ...
APT Pin 2 = ...
APT Pin 3 = ...

First of all - I used the dual channel Hive so can only advise 100% (I.e. tested) on that front.

APT Pin 1 = Hive Pin 4 (NO)
APT Pin 2 = Hive Pin L - Permanent Live
APT Pin 3 = Hive Pin N - Permanent Neutral

For the single channel - I imagine it's:

APT Pin 1 = Hive Pin 3 (NO)
APT Pin 2 = Hive Pin L - Permanent Live
APT Pin 3 = Hive Pin N - Permanent Neutral
Common = Permanent Live

Should be relatively simple as the IMM24 is just a really simple timer to switch a live - arguably much simpler than converting most stats to Hive/Nest.

 

[jpsmith16]

thanks very much for the quick reply!