Porsche Owners Thread - If you own one or just like or hate them! :)

nucastle said:
Why anyone would want to buy a track focused, teeth rattling, sharp and tramline prone GTx 911 to drive on Britains roads is beyond me.

It's almost a little 'mid life crisis' which the Porsche community could do with a little less of - Owners with cars set up for a track they visit all of about 2-3 times a year (at best).

There seems to be an amazing obsession these days with 'track' performance, which by and large does not even extend to the drivers daring to actually race their cars properly - rather them driving neatly around without getting close to each other, let alone touching - perish the thought!
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A modern 911 / GT3 setup for the odd track day does not suffer from any teeth rattling, sharp and tramline prone like you speak of though.

My Carrera has a geo on it which is beyond that of a GT3, its absolutely lovely to drive on the road. A GT3 is also fine on the road, even with a bit of geo.

A Carrera (with GT3 parts) or a GT3 can run as much as -2.5 negative front camber and -2.2 negative rear camber with neutral toe or toe in and lots of caster on the road and not have the issues you speak off.

People who use GT3's as primarily track only vehicles will run around -3.5 front negative camber and around -3.0 rear camber and have full slicks. They might even have mild toe out on the front, these would then exihibit the problems you speak off, but these are full time track machines.

But a 911 / GT3 is sublime on the track with a moderate geo and equally epic on the road without the issues you speak of. :)
 
nucastle said:
Why anyone would want to buy a track focused, teeth rattling, sharp and tramline prone GTx 911 to drive on Britains roads is beyond me.

It's almost a little 'mid life crisis' which the Porsche community could do with a little less of - Owners with cars set up for a track they visit all of about 2-3 times a year (at best).

There seems to be an amazing obsession these days with 'track' performance, which by and large does not even extend to the drivers daring to actually race their cars properly - rather them driving neatly around without getting close to each other, let alone touching - perish the thought!
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Doesn't sound like you've driven onon the road... They're just fine and can be adjusted to suit.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
What on earth has toe and camber selection got to do with spring rates that effect the ride control/comfort balance?
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Quite a lot.

The guys question was about a GT3 / 911 setup for track work with a geo on the car.

A car setup with lots of toe out would be extremely darty and very alive on the road, so in answer to your question it has a lot to do with how the car would drive on the road, if setup exclusively for serious track work only or with the wrong geo settings.

Having driven a GT3 that was setup far to aggressively for the road due to extreme camber and toe selection if made it a real handful on the road, so in answer to your question it has quite an effect on the ride control and its not so comfortable if your fearing for your life holding on for grim death due to a poor geo or one far to extreme for road use.

My point was a GT3 / 911 can have a good road and track setup and still be great on the road without thinking its going to try and kill you everytime you take the car out.
 
Gibbo said:
Quite a lot.

The guys question was about a GT3 / 911 setup for track work with a geo on the car.

A car setup with lots of toe out would be extremely darty and very alive on the road, so in answer to your question it has a lot to do with how the car would drive on the road, if setup exclusively for serious track work only or with the wrong geo settings.
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No it wont; and that wasn't his question. I can see the points he's making, can you? Isn't Housey conclusion of a GT3 similar to that for daily use and why he regards the cross country ability of his RS4 so well?

Stiff springs still make a car ride harder than the non 'extreme' variants.

End of.
 
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Jonnycoupe said:
No it wont; and that wasn't his question. I can see the points he's making, can you? Isn't Housey conclusion of a GT3 similar to that for daily use and why he regards the cross country ability of his RS4 so well?

Stiff springs still make a car ride harder than the non 'extreme' variants.

End of.
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He mentioned tramlining, which has a lot to do with the geo setup on the car. Housey had an extreme track setup on his car which caused it to tramline heavily, he later adjusted it which calmed it down a lot. Also since Housey's 996 GT3, the 997 has come on leaps and bounds in the dampening making them extremely capable on a cross country track, but saying that I've been out with guys with 996 GT3's who have not had issues with cross country ability. Its all about the setup of these cars which is down to both geo and suspension.

But a GT3 on the road is not teeth rattling at all as the OP seemed to think, GT3 have PASM so with suspension in none sport mode they are pretty decent even on the worse of UK roads.

So yes in regards to tramlining and the car trying to find every rut and rivot the road, the geo can effect this quite a bit and the OP mentioned tramlining which is not pleasurable at all.

The teeth jarring ride is down to suspension, but GT3's in my experience are certainly not teeth jarring and the 997.2's could even be considering verging onto quite comfortable the dampening is that good.

Arcamalpha who owns a gen2 GT3 has even replied saying they are anything but teeth jarring and can be adjusted to suit.
 
Gibbo said:
He mentioned tramlining, which has a lot to do with the geo setup on the car. Housey had an extreme track setup on his car which caused it to tramline heavily, he later adjusted it which calmed it down a lot. Also since Housey's 996 GT3, the 997 has come on leaps and bounds in the dampening making them extremely capable on a cross country track, but saying that I've been out with guys with 996 GT3's who have not had issues with cross country ability. Its all about the setup of these cars which is down to both geo and suspension.

But a GT3 on the road is not teeth rattling at all as the OP seemed to think, GT3 have PASM so with suspension in none sport mode they are pretty decent even on the worse of UK roads.

So yes in regards to tramlining and the car trying to find every rut and rivot the road, the geo can effect this quite a bit and the OP mentioned tramlining which is not pleasurable at all.

The teeth jarring ride is down to suspension, but GT3's in my experience are certainly not teeth jarring and the 997.2's could even be considering verging onto quite comfortable the dampening is that good.

Arcamalpha who owns a gen2 GT3 has even replied saying they are anything but teeth jarring and can be adjusted to suit.
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I think many of your would be surprised just how soft the springs on a GT3 (be it 996 or 997) actually are compared to vehicle mass. It's the suspension config (damping and geo) that makes them feel 'racy'. Gibbo has tested enough geo setups to know the difference they make on trampling, turn in, stability etc.

Remember, a GT3 road car is not a race car. The bodyshell may be the same, and the suspension very similar, but the race cars run massive camber as Gibbo says and much much higher spring rates than the road cars.

A GT3, especially Gen2, is actually very capable as a cross-country tool but nonetheless is aimed at the most hardcore end of the road car spectrum with the exception of Arial Atoms and Radicals etc.
 
Gibbo said:
A modern 911 / GT3 setup for the odd track day does not suffer from any teeth rattling, sharp and tramline prone like you speak of though.

My Carrera has a geo on it which is beyond that of a GT3, its absolutely lovely to drive on the road. A GT3 is also fine on the road, even with a bit of geo.

A Carrera (with GT3 parts) or a GT3 can run as much as -2.5 negative front camber and -2.2 negative rear camber with neutral toe or toe in and lots of caster on the road and not have the issues you speak off.

People who use GT3's as primarily track only vehicles will run around -3.5 front negative camber and around -3.0 rear camber and have full slicks. They might even have mild toe out on the front, these would then exihibit the problems you speak off, but these are full time track machines.

But a 911 / GT3 is sublime on the track with a moderate geo and equally epic on the road without the issues you speak of. :)
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Modern (997) yes, but the 996 GT3's were a different story.

The overall package of a GTx is what I'm on about - A track car for the road. Of course the 997 softened some of that out (to which purists might have something to say) but it's kind of the same as people who buy Challenge Stradale / Scuderia Fezzas and are secretly kicking themselves they might turn heads when slowly cruising around London but they can't feel their rear ends after any ride over 30 minutes ;)
 
I don't have a Porsche but I do have a car set up to be good on track, which I drive every day. I can't see what the problem is tbh, 400lb springs and it is perfectly streetable, going to 575lb soon. Guess what, I actually like it this way, and would not want a soft wafty car at all.
I wonder why you question other peoples preferences so much?
 
Clarkey said:
I wonder why you question other peoples preferences so much?
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Who's that one aimed at? Mainly thats Paradigm's job, 'cos man that guy is FUNNY!

Poundage of springs means nothing anyway, youve heard of motion ratios yeah?

I guess nucastles question has been answered with my comment of spring rates proceding that discussion as thats the bone-shaking bit and I could see the point he was getting to, the first reply regarding wheel alignment wasnt really the primary issue with hard riding cars, any car can be make to feel nervous. Dunno if you knew this Clarkey but Porsche tuned their GT range not some guy with spring rates stiffer than an M3?
 
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Jonnycoupe said:
Poundage of springs means nothing anyway, youve heard of motion ratios yeah?
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Yes thanks, quite familiar. You might also have heard that a typical McPherson strut has near to 1:1 ratio..
I guess nucastles question has been answered with my comment of spring rates proceding that discussion as thats the bone-shaking bit and I could see the point he was getting to, the first reply regarding wheel alignment wasnt really the primary issue with hard riding cars, any car can be make to feel nervous. Dunno if you knew this Clarkey but Porsche tuned their GT range not some guy with spring rates stiffer than an M3?
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Really not sure what kind of point you are trying to make here? Seems like a cheap dig at me, when all I was saying is that 'high' spring rates don't really translate into a bone shaking ride with dampers as they are today.
 
Clarkey said:
Yes thanks, quite familiar. You might also have heard that a typical McPherson strut has near to 1:1 ratio..


Really not sure what kind of point you are trying to make here? Seems like a cheap dig at me, when all I was saying is that 'high' spring rates don't really translate into a bone shaking ride with dampers as they are today.
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Dunno really. Just countering your tone. I was assuming your I6 FR car had least weight at the rear and hence spring rate comment...

Good to hear nucastles point doesnt seem to stand true on the GT range anyway based on what the 911 guys have said.. :)
 
My GT3 actually had a mid track setting at it's most aggressive, surprisingly, it was never running a full track set up as I asked JZM to dial out the understeer at initial turn in and some of the vagueness which was common (but safer) on standard Porsche settings. The difference was immediate but in reality too aggressive (not least on tyres!) for road use so I had Feransport bring it back to a more light setting, but still away from Porsche stock. It did lose some steering sharpness but was more settled and better on road.

To be fair I sort of went half way house and never did a full corner weighting and ride height and that was a mistake. The 996 GT3 is very different to the 997 GT3, it is much more alive and this is why many people who have had both prefer the 996 on track, using language like 'much more alive'. On road the 997 is a different beast but still very sharp but the suspension set up means it rides better over the bumps and in the more sorted road car. It's actually not that much different to a 997 C2S.....but it is sharper and quicker.
 
Kingy said:
That makes a lot of sense actually. I guess much of my Ferrari "wow." comes from the F40 poster on my bedroom wall as a child. I grew to respect the capability of Porsche as an adult, but the unbridled childish WANT still screams Ferrari.

What with racing etc, you're clearly more driver than badge poser, but you haven't mentioned having ticked the Ferrari box once yet; so are you tempted to indulge, or you dyed in the wool Pork and/or just don't have the Ferrari itch to scratch?
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Having owned both (996, 996.2, GT3, F40) I can say that the porsche is a practical (if you can say that in relation to a GT3) car, its solid, dependable, reliable and fun.. but its Ferrari is always an occasion the porsche can never be.

Don't get me wrong, the 911's always will be inspirational in their allover capability, they're just not special in the way that even a 348 is.

I say this loving the 911's I've owned.
 
Gibbo said:
Nope, F40 is a part of history, an all time great. But as a car to live with day to day, be reliable whilst truly immense to drive on both road and track, the GT3 is hard to beat.
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I use my F40 day to day, it's been 100% reliable (except for the times it hasnt been ;)

by that I mean once over the teething troubles of getting a Museum piece back on the road, Its been 100% for over 6k km.

Anyone who would take a Gt3 over a F40 has never driven both (or even either properly!)

A GT3 isnt supposed to be safe, sedate or easy to drive, yet it is..
An F40 is all the best things about a GT3 turned up to 11, with non of the nappy side.

550 BHP (or 478 stock) and just over 1T, with 2 huge dusty bin turbos mated to a 2.9l V8..

There is a reason the F40, despite being 25 yrs old, is still considered the ultimate supercar of all time... and it's not the cup holders :)
 
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