Power/Weight Thread

Thomas. PLease. · 22 Jun 2015 at 10:15

Shamrock said:
Wow, that's a big increase isn't it? Congrats.

I'm considering doing an FTP test now I've got a PM. Do you think doing a 60min session on the turbo with my normal tyre will cause considerable wear? I really can't be bothered to put the turbo tyre on for a single session! Such faff.

Tbh I wouldn't trust turbo numbers for FTP, especially not you're first one. Turbo power can be vastly different due to the heat etc, some people know their turbo power to be miles off outdoors.

I also wouldn't do a full 60 minute test, rather use one of the 20 minute testing protocols outdoors. One lap plus a bit of RP suits quite well for an FTP test imo.

However ideally you'd be better off in a race situation, as motivation towards the end will be tough.

xdcx · 22 Jun 2015 at 10:16

Shamrock said:
Wow, that's a big increase isn't it? Congrats.

I'm considering doing an FTP test now I've got a PM. Do you think doing a 60min session on the turbo with my normal tyre will cause considerable wear? I really can't be bothered to put the turbo tyre on for a single session! Such faff.

I have went from 254 about 7 weeks ago to 262 a fortnight ago and then 282 yesterday so it is coming along nicely :cool:

I have used my turbo twice in the past couple weeks both for 60 mins at a time, it has left a small flat spot round the tyre but I am still running it outside and it is totally fine, it's not destroyed the tyre as I feared it would haha. I would say just do a 20min test outside though, I think a test outside on road surface, weather, temperature and in the situation you cycle in is a far more relative test than indoors on a turbo. Do you have a flattish OK surfaced road area you could get a good solid 20 min without junctions/traffic lights etc?

Shamrock · 22 Jun 2015 at 10:39

xdcx said:
Do you have a flattish OK surfaced road area you could get a good solid 20 min without junctions/traffic lights etc?

Would a TT run suffice? I'm going to be doing practice runs in preparation for the RP TT. Roughly 25-30mins of solid effort on a relatively flat but not pancake course.

xdcx · 22 Jun 2015 at 10:42

Shamrock said:
Would a TT run suffice? I'm going to be doing practice runs in preparation for the RP TT. Roughly 25-30mins of solid effort on a relatively flat but not pancake course.

Absolutely! Sounds spot on.

Thomas. PLease. · 22 Jun 2015 at 11:41

Shamrock said:
Would a TT run suffice? I'm going to be doing practice runs in preparation for the RP TT. Roughly 25-30mins of solid effort on a relatively flat but not pancake course.

Yeah perfect, be aware though being in TT position will affect things. I think I'm about 20w down compared to the road bike.

Shamrock · 22 Jun 2015 at 11:49

Is that because the TT position is mechanically disadvantaged for generating power or something?

Thomas. PLease. · 22 Jun 2015 at 12:03

Shamrock said:
Is that because the TT position is mechanically disadvantaged for generating power or something?

Yeah pretty much, the price for being more aero, being bent over is that most people will struggle to recreate the same power they can on a road bike, where they're in a much more optimum position.

It's different for different people though, and will largely depend on how aggressive your TT posiiton is.

GSVBagpuss · 22 Jun 2015 at 21:17

I saw that Dan Lloyd said his FTP was 290 @ 70kg - and he looks pretty lean to me. Was expecting more from a not long retired pro.

Thomas. PLease. · 22 Jun 2015 at 21:29

GSVBagpuss said:
I saw that Dan Lloyd said his FTP was 290 @ 70kg - and he looks pretty lean to me. Was expecting more from a not long retired pro.

Hmm I bet in his prime it was probably not far off another 100w on top of that. Would quickly disappear if not training in a meaningful way. I saw a while ago a set of intervals he did, ridiculous ability to hold a set level of power for a specific time.

Shamrock · 23 Jun 2015 at 07:49

Ugh, so weak and slow! Either I was much fitter last year or my FTP from the watt bike was grossly exaggerated. I always seem to go out too strong on these TT efforts and then fade before half way. Got to work on that.

So do I take 95% of the weighted average or actual average as an FTP figure?

Thomas. PLease. · 23 Jun 2015 at 08:20

Shamrock said:
Ugh, so weak and slow! Either I was much fitter last year or my FTP from the watt bike was grossly exaggerated. I always seem to go out too strong on these TT efforts and then fade before half way. Got to work on that.

So do I take 95% of the weighted average or actual average as an FTP figure?

Actual average. But depending on your fitness its probably safer to go with something like 93% I've found from experience. Especially if its a fresh effort, i.e. you've just gone out and smashed 20mins. The proper 20min test protocol has a 5 minute primer where you go as hard as you can for 5 minutes, then rest, then the 20 minute effort.

Shamrock · 23 Jun 2015 at 08:52

Thomas. PLease. said:
Actual average. But depending on your fitness its probably safer to go with something like 93% I've found from experience. Especially if its a fresh effort, i.e. you've just gone out and smashed 20mins. The proper 20min test protocol has a 5 minute primer where you go as hard as you can for 5 minutes, then rest, then the 20 minute effort.

Ouch, that makes my result disappointingly low! Almost ashamed to post it.

Average 211W * 0.93 / 60kg = 3.27W/kg

This morning's "effort":

https://www.strava.com/activities/331074333

Compare this to last year's 20km sprint Tri effort. Granted I didn't have a PM but it looks faster!

https://www.strava.com/activities/174527187

So depressing to think, despite all the training, you are actually worse than a year ago.

xdcx · 23 Jun 2015 at 09:10

Shamrock said:
Ugh, so weak and slow! Either I was much fitter last year or my FTP from the watt bike was grossly exaggerated. I always seem to go out too strong on these TT efforts and then fade before half way. Got to work on that.

So do I take 95% of the weighted average or actual average as an FTP figure?

The main thing is to learn from these efforts though man, next time you do it go out more conservatively and build it up. The last 5 mins are going to hurt, I mean properly hurt and you should be digging really deep 18-20mins and if any fading is going on, it damn sure better be at 19:55 onwards when your legs have literally became flabby bits of jelly flopping about underneath you!

For the FTP figure, whatever power figure you averaged for that 20min "lap" is your FTP. Forget the weighted or normalized averages on that 20mins.

EDIT - oops, I just hit quote and replied not seeing the thread was onto a new page, I will leave the above anyway I guess. Don't let it get you down Shamrock, use it as fuel for your training, you can get back to previous form and you can't compare them side by side identically given the circumstances anyway?

SoliD · 23 Jun 2015 at 09:15

Got confirmed entry for 50 mile TT on Sunday and no idea on what sort of power I should be aiming for. Ftp is about 250 but I seem to get stronger compared to most on club runs and the like.

Thomas. PLease. · 23 Jun 2015 at 09:53

Shamrock said:
Ouch, that makes my result disappointingly low! Almost ashamed to post it.

Average 211W * 0.93 / 60kg = 3.27W/kg

This morning's "effort":

https://www.strava.com/activities/331074333

Compare this to last year's 20km sprint Tri effort. Granted I didn't have a PM but it looks faster!

https://www.strava.com/activities/174527187

So depressing to think, despite all the training, you are actually worse than a year ago.

I wouldn't be too disheartened, I've heard watt bike numbers are notoriously off, especially ones in gyms which aren't calibrated often. So comparison to another PM is likely to not be too credible.

In terms of your comparison there, London tri course is much much faster than you'll ever go in RP, which is actually quite a demanding course. Worth up to 2mph in my opinion there, so you could actually quite a bit faster.

I can probably average 27.5mph over 10miles on a flat course, but only did 25.1mph in RP at the weekend.

Thomas. PLease. · 23 Jun 2015 at 09:56

xdcx said:
For the FTP figure, whatever power figure you averaged for that 20min "lap" is your FTP. Forget the weighted or normalized averages on that 20mins.

If only, FTP is power you can hold for an hour, not for 20 minutes. 20 minute is just used as a testing proxy, as not many people are actually able to go all out for an hour in a non race situation.

The common test is 95% of 20 minute power = FTP. But personally I think this inflates FTP too much for all but the fittest of cyclists.

xdcx · 23 Jun 2015 at 10:17

Thomas. PLease. said:
If only, FTP is power you can hold for an hour, not for 20 minutes. 20 minute is just used as a testing proxy, as not many people are actually able to go all out for an hour in a non race situation.

The common test is 95% of 20 minute power = FTP. But personally I think this inflates FTP too much for all but the fittest of cyclists.

Yeah sorry. I am in the habit of refering to 20min as FTP like an idiot, CP is what I should be refer to 20mins as. Like you say 20min is a base line to then estimate 60mins to establish FTP. I think the paid version of Strava or GoldenCheetah would be better to use to give you an estimated curve from the 20min tests. Do you know what formula Strava uses to establish 60mins on their curve? Is it 95%?

Thomas. PLease. · 23 Jun 2015 at 10:25

xdcx said:
Yeah sorry. I am in the habit of refering to 20min as FTP like an idiot, CP is what I should be refer to 20mins as. Like you say 20min is a base line to then estimate 60mins to establish FTP. I think the paid version of Strava or GoldenCheetah would be better to use to give you an estimated curve from the 20min tests. Do you know what formula Strava uses to establish 60mins on their curve? Is it 95%?

Yeah from what I see its basically 20 minute power x 0.95. However, I think it may take into account stuff further up the curve if there is a clear time period. Always seems a little bit toppy to me.

Anyhow, I guess it doesn't matter too much if just using for training as the zones are fairly wide, so training in a zone can be +/- 50w for example.

Where I think accuracy is needed is in tracking TSS, and plotting performance management charts. As if you're under/over estimating FTP here then your TSS numbers are going to be pretty off.

xdcx · 23 Jun 2015 at 10:36

I am amending the power profile list to show 60min = FTP and 20min = CP.

My actual best power average over 60mins was from a bunch session on Thursday last week and was 232w. If I take my 282w for 20mins and *0.95/60 I get 267w - Doing the same with 93% would result in 262w so lets just say based on the common math used my CP is 282w and my FTP is 260w. I know for fact I can do 282w for 20mins but that 60min figure would be very, very difficult.

Strava once you have a good data set doesn't predict up, it uses previous actual averaged data from rides for the curve but Golden Cheetah does take all data over recent times and predict you. So if we base my previous week in GC in which I done a genuine test of 60min=232w and 20min=282w - It is predicting on my curve that I have an FTP of 261w. So we can establish certainly GC is operating in the realms of what you are saying Thomas to calculate this

Am I making sense or are you guys not even bothered? haha.

Shamrock · 23 Jun 2015 at 12:55

Cheers guys, trying not to be too disheartened but when you see negative gainz it's pretty rubbish!

Looking at the longer rides I've done since I got the Stages it does seem to agree with my FTP being around a measly 200W.

70.3 bike leg - 1h average 198W
L2B TT - 1h average 195W

In my first attempt at the RP TT course 2 weeks ago I averaged 224W for for the 10mi which is sort of in line with the 20min effort being more than the actual FTP.

Just making excuses here, but I've read that if you come back from a rest period weaker than before it's an indicator of overtraining?