Project Bentley

JRS · 3 Apr 2013 at 05:29

I remember the eBay spoof auction for one of those jars. My favourite bit of the Q&A on the auction page went something like this:

q: You say this is a genuine Lucas part, then offer substantial testimony that it works. This doesn't seem possible.
a: This is known as the Nuffield Paradox. It can't be helped.

I am still a bit narked about this latest breakage, or whatever has happened. And I'm really bored of R-R/Bentley's idea of what consititutes decent design and manufacturing. When you're designing a luxury car, something that you'll claim to be 'the best car in the world', your default position should not be "oh, that'll do"....

JRS · 25 Apr 2013 at 19:13

Gary packed the car off to yet another mechanic, a classic car specialist who came recommended. The pump that we replaced the seals on busted itself internally - looks like fixing the seals revealed other weaknesses! All sorted now, the system was being bled when Gary last texted me earlier today so it should be back on his driveway by now.

Once again though, there's an oddity. There are two hydraulic pumps on these cars. The front one (mounted towards the front of the engine near the alternator and A/C compressor) supplies pressurised oil to the rear struts and rear brakes. The rear one (mounted between the inlet manifold, warm-up regulator and distributor to make it a complete pain in the rectum to do anything to) sends oil to the front brakes. We did the seals on the rear pump, and that's the one that broke. So why did we lose the rear suspension and brakes, which the front pump supplies?

The systems obviously share some common pipework, but I can't figure out why we saw the opposite of what we should expect. Unless Bentley managed to assemble this one the wrong way around....

Anyway, with both pumps working and pressures being equal across the hydraulic system the ABS should start to behave now. And the ride at the rear should be more consistent.

JRS · 26 Apr 2013 at 10:14

I'll be quite sad to see it go, to be honest. It's been an interesting project, and it's a lovely old bus when everything is working. It's just that 'everything working' is a fleeting state of affairs thanks to a combination of things:

The almost-zero maintenance it got in the last few years before Gary bought it
R-R/Bentley's questionable design choices and build quality
The age (24 years old) and the mileage (thick end of 142,000 miles)

I guess Gary will be happy to see it go to someone who will carry on doing what we've been doing and bring this car right back up to how it should be. And his wife will be utterly ecstatic to see the back of it!

JRS · 11 May 2013 at 13:07

And so it continues....gas spheres for the rear hydraulics need replacing! Getting to be like Trigger's broom this car, virtually everything has been replaced or renewed.

JRS · 31 May 2013 at 13:27

*angelic chorus*

I dunno what the fuss is about this job. Easy peasy.

Here's where we were working today. Carpets and side panels out of the boot, and behind the left-side hinge we see a sphere:

And one on the right:

Now, the first thing that the Bentley workshop manual tells you to do is depressurise the whole bloody hydraulic system. I say this is bull-****. We used up the pressure in the accumulator spheres at the front of the car (you pump the brakes with the engine off 60 times or so, takes care of it), then after letting the car settle down slightly at the rear for a few days jacked it up until the rear wheels were just about to leave the ground. This takes all the pressure of the car's weight off the system, and means you haven't got to drop a ****-gallon of hydraulic fluid out of the car. Also means that anything left in the struts won't get sprayed straight out of the top when you remove the sphere.

Simples! *squeak*

Tried to undo them with a jaw-type oil filter wrench first, but couldn't get enough grip so went out to Machine Mart and got a chain-type one. That did the trick for loosening them off. Then once the new ones were spun into their threads we used the jaws to nip them back up.

Ran the car up to the next village over and back. Rear end is definitely improved, there's a compliance there that we didn't have before and the damping is much better. Also rides a hell of a lot quieter! Think we might be getting somewhere....

Job took two hours all told (time to remove the carpets, move the battery cut-off switch, drive into town to get a chain wrench, do the work). Probably would have cost the thick end of £400 at a garage, much more than that at a Bentley main dealer.

JRS · 1 Jun 2013 at 10:00

Driving it yesterday was one of those lightbulb moments - 'oh, so that's what it's supposed to do....'

Still think that the R-R/Bentley hydraulic setup is an abomination and they should never have deviated at all from the Citroen design, but at least now it's working as intended.

Once we've got the boot carpets and panels clean they'll go back in place. Going to keep an eye on the new spheres for a while, make sure we haven't got any leaks. Don't want a boot full of Castrol HSMO!

JRS · 2 Jun 2013 at 23:46

Gary did about 45 miles today all told. Another £50 of petrol has gone in, so he can probably get to the end of the road that he lives on before it runs out

Still, nice to have the car at the point where it can be taken out in public!

JRS · 6 Jun 2013 at 16:11

This is Gary, ran the old car for a fair amount of miles (shopping and just popping about) its very boreing when she just starts/runs/stops and floats along. Have to think about something to do, I'll ask James (would have gave up ages ago without James just do it attitude).

JRS · 19 Jul 2013 at 09:25

You'd laugh, if it wasn't tragic. The ol' bus failed her MOT again. This time it was the suspension levelling strut on the other side to the one that failed before (nothing like as bad, but a failure nonetheless), a couple of loose bolts on the steering rack (never have understood why a tester who sees something like that can't just nip them back up!) and one blown foglamp bulb at the back.

Strut is on it's way, same guy who supplied one for Gary last time had one ready for him within a couple of days of the call (great guy). The bulb is easy to get at, like most cars it's easier than changing bulbs on the front by a looooooooooooong way. The bolts on the rack....meh, damned if I'm lifting the front of this car up just for two bolts. The guy doing the fitting of the strut can do that when the car is on a lift.

Those struts are fun. Once upon a time R-R/Bentley fitted units that could be taken apart and serviced when they inevitably gave up the struggle of supporting a very heavy car on variable road surfaces. Then one day in Crewe, some bright spark decided that they should start fitting units that you can't service. And charge eight hundred ******* pounds plus labour for replacements.

Best cars in the world, honestly :rolleyes:

JRS · 10 Aug 2013 at 13:59

Car's back, fresh ticket with no advisories. Steering is lighter and more precise now that the rack is held in place a bit tighter, ride at the rear is completely serene.

Made merry with the gas pedal on the way home with it, and it didn't half take off.... :eek:

JRS · 11 Aug 2013 at 09:36

Not had chance to break it, still SORN until Monday!

JRS · 18 May 2014 at 16:37

A Project Bentley™ update

Last time I posted about the old bus, everything was fine.

And everything was fine for quite a while

And then it wasn't

I got a phone call a couple of months ago (or it might have been a text message, can't quite remember) from Gary to say that the ordinarily sensible car in his household - the 3.2 V6 Vectra - was refusing to fire up. The battery had been flattened trying to get it going, and it was showing all the classic signs of being out of petrol in spite of the fuel gauge showing that there was plenty in (no-one should really trust petrol gauges). So he and his wife got in the Bentley and went to a local petrol station to buy a fuel can (his was full of two-stroke for his chainsaw) and a gallon. The Bentley made it to one station just fine, but they didn't have any cans. It never made it to another destination.

I get another phone call that night. The car came to a grinding (literally) halt halfway around a roundabout. I went out, picked Gary's wife up, went to another garage to buy a can of fuel, took her home and got the Vectra jump-started and running (dashboard readout still showing 108 miles to empty :rolleyes:

). By this time the recovery truck had finally been sent out by the RAC, and the Bentley was arriving back.

Royces and Bentleys of this era use GM's venerable TH400 3spd auto 'box. Unfortunately, much like their horrible interpretation of Citroen hydraulics, they couldn't leave well alone and changed the casing. Several times. Gary bought a 'box from a 1988 Silver Spur. It should have fitted. But no, in 1989 for a six month period R-R/Bentley decided to change the case again. Exact same internals, but the starter motor is on the other side and the shape of the mounting adapter is different. Instead, the original 'box is being rebuilt by a local specialist, the Spur 'box is going back for a refund, and the car will hopefully get nailed back together again next week.

JRS · 18 May 2014 at 19:08

What amazes me is that in a Chevy, or Buick, or Oldsmobile, or even a complete piece of **** like a Caddy that Turbo-Hydramatic gearbox cannot be hurt. At all. Doesn't wear out, doesn't break*. When the balloon eventually goes up and Happy Fun Time With Nukes™ arrives, all those cheap-as-chips GM trucks with TH400s will work just fine in the aftermath. Put it in a Royce or Bentley, charge an incredible amount, and you don't even make it to 150,000 miles on the odometer before it lunches itself.

* - I exaggerate, of course. They do break on occasion, especially when a driver acts like a complete ape with no mechanical sympathy at all. But they built eleventy squillion of these gearboxes, and the number of them that go wrong when modified and stuffed into a non-GM vehicle makes me weep.

JRS · 24 May 2014 at 14:01

Nearly done

Hi this is Gary, it was a bit more dramatic when she broke down. As I was on a major junction it really brought the area to a standstill, the police came to help blue lights the works. Every one who new the car and me phoned my wife to see if I had been pulled buy the police. When the low loader arrived it blocked the road completely. The car also even when in park started rolling to the police car (imagine the insurance claim) Its a big car to hold back. I managed the get to the parking brake in the nick of time. any way the box has been rebuilt and is in the car just a few bits and bobs to fit and she's back. There is nothing left of the car I bought. But I still love her (the bitch). I will drive her as a daily drive from now on. TTFN

JRS · 24 May 2014 at 20:16

mejinks said:
Alls well that ends well eh? Glad to see you are still using her. Any chance of some current photos?

I'll sort some out. Not much has changed since the last lot of photos with the body, though - still stands out as a chestnut red 2½ ton behemoth with a delicate little gold stripe up each side!

JRS · 25 May 2014 at 15:26

Thanks for the support Dup, I know it'll mean a lot to Gary when he reads it.

Joe - I'd forgotten that you'd bought Lewis' old Pontiac. Enjoying it?

JRS · 29 May 2014 at 22:00

Getting a to-do list together for when the old bus is back on the road:

1) Headlight wiring, drivers side - need to re-do the earthing
2) Bumpers - get them remotely presentable
3) Drivers door - get the door card back on tight
4) Passenger front door - fix the lacquer underneath the handle

At some point I'd like to do the main door seal around the drivers door, but a) I suspect it's a pig of a job and b) I also reckon that the seal in question would be phenomenally expensive.

JRS · 6 Jun 2014 at 16:56

In a fairly unsurprising move, the Bentley decided that she didn't want to come home just yet. The mechanic who's been working on her was test driving and making sure nothing else was wrong....when something else went wrong. The car is now sporting a broken Woodruff key in one of the rear hubs.

Now, this wouldn't disable a car with a limited slip differential because you'd still have drive to one side. Alright, not ideal but at least he could move it around and get it back onto his lift inside the workshop. And given that this is a Bentley Mulsanne S, which was a bloody expensive car back in the day, you'd expect the manufacturer to fit such a device. After all, they increase safety, and winter usability, and improve handling, and....well, you can see where this is going. Of course Bentley used open differentials on these cars. Why would they spend money on a proper diff'?

End result is that all the power that the rebuilt gearbox is sending out is being used to spin one side of the diff uselessly.

At this point I'm pondering....well, several things:

One of the rear hubs has been apart before, when that previous mechanic had the car for over half a year stuck in his workshop. What am I bet that the key has broken on that hub?
Maybe that key has been weak for a while, and the rebuilt gearbox is transmitting rather more power and torque to the back?
If point 2 is correct, then once it's all back together I suspect this car will have some actual speed to go with all the noise that it makes at WOT.
If someone invented a time machine, I could use it to go back and beat the entire R-R/Bentley design team senseless with their own slide rules. Special attention would have course be paid to the **** who did the rear window demist.

Mechanic is checking to see if he's got a key that'll fit, if he has and can get it all nailed together again today and test it (no way in hell are we taking it back if it's just going to break down again straight away) then I'll go pick it up later. If not, it'll have to be next week.

JRS · 7 Jun 2014 at 01:01

Yeah....probably shouldn't even joke about that sort of thing. On the plus side it's already completed one journey with the mechanic driving, without blowing itself back to Narnia

Picking the car up in the morning. Needs a good clean (very dusty) and my to-do list from post #12. But that aside, we're back to working again.

For now!

JRS · 7 Jun 2014 at 12:03

And she's home!

Took Gary over to the garage earlier, where he handed over an eye-watering amount of readies. God bless Bentleys eh? 'cause no other bugger would....

Gearbox has been rebuilt. A new Woodruff key for the spinning hub has been made and fitted (oh, point 1 from my earlier post was wrong - it was the other side). And as of ten minutes ago while typing this, tested thoroughly by Gary who took advantage of the tighter gearbox and torque converter and basically drove like a hooligan all the way home. We can now confirm that you can get wheelspin up through 2nd gear in the wet!

Also learned a few new things about the car. There's always been a bit of noise under deceleration that I assumed was the diff' (English car makers have never been able to do silent differentials in my experience). Nope. Turns out that the gearbox was broken a lot longer than first thought, because that noise is completely gone now. Also, the changes are a lot smoother - 2nd-3rd was always a bit on the violent side, now it's smooth as butter. If Gary can contain himself and drive sensibly, then I think it'll get better fuel mileage now. And it's probably going to be a bit quicker if that journey was any indication!

At any rate, Gary's now back in love with it. And he's going to have to keep it a while now with the amount spent :eek: