Project managers

[palmy]

Don't worry, they love me! I'm just taking it out on you guys

p.s. as a certified MOSS developer, I'm actually a ways up

Shame that MOSS is an absolute pile of horse manure.

bloody hate pmgrs.

We moved a physical server to a vm one and exact copy using vm converter. The tool starts saying everything is different as the times when the files were created were different to the original times on the other server.

He could not understand why they were different even after explaining and practically draing a picture for him.

He kept us 1-2 hours longer with this crap : (

Sound like you are rubbish at explaining and have a lack of understanding yourself. Thats not the PMs fault.

 

[dangerstat]

I couldn't agree with the OP more, the vast majority of PM's assigned to "manage" technical projects are retards. They don't know jack about development, some of them think they do because they've done an MSc in "business systems management" which is about as much use as the toilet paper I wipe my bottom with.

The problem is that they have no technical ability what so ever- so they don't see the difference between an well engineered solution and a hacked together fix. And when they give you only enough time to get a hacked together fix, and when it unsurprisingly breaks - guess what they blame the developers!

They're useless turds. The only ones that can be respected at all, is thoes who where actually developers in the past - they tend to have a clue. All the rest (and especially those with absolutely useless MBA type qualifications) can go jump of a bridge and do us all a favour.

 

[ScarySquirrel]

Only read the first page.

From the OP, I really cannot see what the issue is.

I am glad the developers at my place of work aren't like some of the people in here. They may be socially inept (I can stereotype too) but at least they don't moan this much.

 

[Manlove is my forte]

Can you not use this 'Compile Time' to think abut more accurate estimations for the required tasks?

I had a PM (actually a reasonably good one) say something like this to me once.

I had just put in a 39 hour weekend (after doing a 37.5 hour week) to perform some maintenance. I had everything originally worked out so it would be more or less automated, and I could do it over VPN.

However VPN went down that weekend so I had to go into the office. To kick off the jobs, and the SA didn't disable the Cron as he was supposed to (and didn't give a mobile number) so I had to spend time removing the output of backups that didn't need to be run and clearing down log files to ensure space was available, as well as re-running jobs that had been knackered by the backup process.

So all in All I got very little sleep had to work like a dog over the weekend. But I hit my target on completing the activity and bringing the system back online before start of business Monday.

I told the PM about this and she asked what I did whilst waiting between jobs to complete. I told her I did what any normal person would do, I put my head down for a nap. She responded with "Surely you could have been more productive by doing some documentation".
There's gratitude for you.

 

[dozer]

granted a lot of pm's are bad, however developers hate to be managed and most have the social skills of the ginger orangutang along with the grooming habits.

trying to spec out a project plan and timeline when all you get is 'dont know' can be challenging.

 

[nero120]

I had a PM (actually a reasonably good one) say something like this to me once.

I had just put in a 39 hour weekend (after doing a 37.5 hour week) to perform some maintenance. I had everything originally worked out so it would be more or less automated, and I could do it over VPN.

However VPN went down that weekend so I had to go into the office. To kick off the jobs, and the SA didn't disable the Cron as he was supposed to (and didn't give a mobile number) so I had to spend time removing the output of backups that didn't need to be run and clearing down log files to ensure space was available, as well as re-running jobs that had been knackered by the backup process.

So all in All I got very little sleep had to work like a dog over the weekend. But I hit my target on completing the activity and bringing the system back online before start of business Monday.

I told the PM about this and she asked what I did whilst waiting between jobs to complete. I told her I did what any normal person would do, I put my head down for a nap. She responded with "Surely you could have been more productive by doing some documentation".
There's gratitude for you.

Damn that is harsh, you are far more justified for a rant than I!

 

[nero120]

granted a lot of pm's are bad, however developers hate to be managed and most have the social skills of the ginger orangutang along with the grooming habits.

trying to spec out a project plan and timeline when all you get is 'dont know' can be challenging.

Actually, I really do like having a good PM as it tends to make my life much easier. Its just that they are so few and far between, and sometimes somethings gotta give. That day was today! Apologies OCUK!

 

[nero120]

Shame that MOSS is an absolute pile of horse manure.

It's actually a very well placed product and great if it is a well priced all in one ECM/WCM/Search solution your organisation is looking for.

Sound like you are rubbish at explaining and have a lack of understanding yourself. Thats not the PMs fault.

I didn't realise you were privvy to the conversation? I only posted in haste so ease up mate.

 

[Pneumonic]

The only ones that can be respected at all, is thoes who where actually developers in the past - they tend to have a clue. All the rest (and especially those with absolutely useless MBA type qualifications) can go jump of a bridge and do us all a favour.

I am glad I fall into this category then...

Never realised there was so much negative feeling about PM's... I get the odd person with a bad attitude but in general once people realise that you know what your talking about and are going to make their lives easier they normally come round and work with you

 

[palmy]

It's actually a very well placed product and great if it is a well priced all in one ECM/WCM/Search solution your organisation is looking for.

No its terrible. I've seen it implemented in several different enterprises and the amount of time developers waste making it do things it can't do out of the box could have been spent on bespoke solution.

I didn't realise you were privvy to the conversation? I only posted in haste so ease up mate.

The comment wasn't aimed at you. Look who I quoted.

 

[nero120]

I am glad I fall into this category then...

Never realised there was so much negative feeling about PM's... I get the odd person with a bad attitude but in general once people realise that you know what your talking about and are going to make their lives easier they normally come round and work with you

The best PMs I've worked with have been organised and given me the information and time I need to do my job, rather than working against me and trying to force the work to suit their timescales. And I agree, they are usually the ones who have been developers in the past, but I don't think it is a necessity, just something to give them some perspective and vision outside of their gantt chart.

 

[Manlove is my forte]

I am glad I fall into this category then...

Never realised there was so much negative feeling about PM's... I get the odd person with a bad attitude but in general once people realise that you know what your talking about and are going to make their lives easier they normally come round and work with you

This is all I ask for in a PM.
PM's are there to facilitate the completion of the work and to remove some of the bureaucracy from the activity for the Techies. Not burden us.

If I had a PM that said "I'm sorry I don't understand, can you explain this to me further off-line so that I'm confident that I understand this". I'd be only too glad to do it, after picking myself off the floor and pinched myself.

 

[jmhduck]

I am glad I fall into this category then...

Never realised there was so much negative feeling about PM's... I get the odd person with a bad attitude but in general once people realise that you know what your talking about and are going to make their lives easier they normally come round and work with you

This is pretty much a rant about PM's thread . Every developer is pleased to have a good PM and having an MBA doesn't automatically make you ****! Any developer would be annoyed by someone who thinks they're amazing because they have an MBA even though they know next to nothing about the domain and then proceed to boss you about as if they actually understand anything.

 

[nero120]

No its terrible. I've seen it implemented in several different enterprises and the amount of time developers waste making it do things it can't do out of the box could have been spent on bespoke solution.

I think that's a flaw in the architect/dev rather than the product. But I do agree it can be mis-implemented due to it's Microsoft label and it's 'one product to rule them all' tagline.

I don't think that you could call it terrible though, Microsoft have sold a lot of licenses for this product!

The comment wasn't aimed at you. Look who I quoted.

Sorry, itchy reply button today!

 

[Moley]

bloody hate pmgrs.
<SNIP STUFF>
He could not understand why they were different even after explaining and practically draing a picture for him.

This was not because he was a PM. This was because he was an idiot.

 

[CaptainComedy]

I've read a lot of this thread and I can only sympathise with the op, but not all project managers are that bad. its the people that recruited them are at fault for recruiting someone that has no idea on what you are doing.

Im a project manager now and I used to be a developer and worked up to current position (although not been at it long) its only me and one other guy but when the shoe was on the other foot - my project manager didnt have a sodding clue.

I dont understand how people can get "project manager" roles when they haven't got a clue about how the project is being made. I mean literally, my project is on a code igniter platform, nothing complex, a basic php website. and I literally sat there for 3 hours... Im not joking. 3 HOURS explaining the concept of code igniter, that was with code examples, with their video, and the guy still didnt understand. One of the companies investors who works in a anti virus company and has no clue about php let alone code igniter completely understood the concept of code igniter in 30 minutes from first glance and was able to help with work arounds on certain obstacles.

Yet this guy was still "It needs to work, when will this work, why isnt it working now". How am I supposed to tell him in non-technical terms why it will take so long when he doesnt have a clue about what Im doing? It cant be done. Eventually I got him sacked for his incompetance.

At the end of the day, as a project manager, it is your duty to have at least a BASIC UNDERSTANDING of the project you are on. Sitting there throwing your toys out of your pram is absolutely useless to both the company and the developer. Even more so when you have no ability to understand the developers justification to why it is taking so long as well as the ability to help them when they need it.

I feel sorry for you nero I really do. With my developer who Im quite friendly with, I NEVER sit there and demand times. I observe the progression of each module, I observe his technical ability and the time spent on a module, then discuss with him his tasks and what he has to do, approaches he has available to take and how to best approach them. ALL project management tasks I do. ESPECIALLY getting time estimates from staff. If a developer needs to sit there and do the time scales themselves, your being a very lazy project manager - these are developers trained to develope, your a project manager trained to maintain an efficient developing environment. It is up to you to keep your team in check.

And for those that are saying he is a bad developer:

a. You've not seen his code so you cant tell
b. You are probably reading it in a very monotone voice - the pm reads very sarcastic to me. And tbh - thats not good team building, let alone building a bad atmosphere within the developers environment, and a unhappy developer wont produce as good results as a happy one.

 

[palmy]

I think that's a flaw in the architect/dev rather than the product. But I do agree it can be mis-implemented due to it's Microsoft label and it's 'one product to rule them all' tagline.

I don't think that you could call it terrible though, Microsoft have sold a lot of licenses for this product!

Fair comment. It does some things well, but some people seem to expect and want more out of MOSS and it struggles to deliver.

 

[nero120]

...

You sir, are a rare breed! Kudos!

 

[Cambofrog]

You sir, are a rare breed! Kudos!

Agreed, good post codec.

 

[Pneumonic]

This is pretty much a rant about PM's thread . Every developer is pleased to have a good PM and having an MBA doesn't automatically make you ****! Any developer would be annoyed by someone who thinks they're amazing because they have an MBA even though they know next to nothing about the domain and then proceed to boss you about as if they actually understand anything.

Ah well... I have no "official" PM Qualifications... ex-developer, certified accountant and general PITA is all I have to go on... never bothered with Prince or anything like that don't see the point...

PM isn't a technically difficult job; listening, organisation, planning, resource and risk management.. not rocket science... I also think that a good PM ensure that those working for them only have to worry about what they are doing... for developers this means you shelter them from the "outside world" and let them sit and code... It certainly helps to have a technical understanding so you know when someone inst pulling their weight or is going above and beyond. However, I think everyone saying "you can't put a time-scale on development" is talking out of their rears! Development is like any other task, it can be broken down and planned for, indeed in a large development team it is essential this happens so that the actual development work-flow is efficient and responsibilities and tasks can be assigned. I can see why a developer that's been used to working on their own on a project can find this sort of environment challenging.