Project managers

[nero120]

Yep, just about the most irratating form of 'human' life.

PM: "So Mr developer, now that you've only just been put on this project that you've never seen or worked on before, how long will this task take?"
Me: "Well, there's a number of tasks that I haven't even looked at yet, but I'd guess a couple of days"
PM: "Riiiiiggghtt. Well, if you could have another look and email me some more definite times that would be great"
Me: :/

Why are they unable to get it through their thick skulls that a developer cannot predict the fricking future and can only give a rough estimate to how long a task will take, especially when they know barely anything about the project they've just been assigned to? What the hell do they expect you to say:

"Yes it will take me precisely 44.10345 minutes to complete this task."

Jog on you overbearing, over-payed, hyped-up admin assistant.

Post all hate for PMs in here.

 

[nero120]

The PM only needs a figure in terms of days or half days, it is to allow him to predict when work will finish and schedule further work that could be dependant on your code. If you can't estimate to this extent then may I suggest your not quite the top developer you think you are?

Lol, thought I smelled the stench of decay. So you must be one of them. If you expect developers to:

a.) Be able to read minds
b.) Be able to read the future
c.) Be your friend

then you are sadly mistaken. If a rough estimate isn't good enough for you then as I said, jog on. Here's a digit to stick in your stupid excel spreadsheet/MS Project chart/Gantt chart you sodden nose hair!

 

[nero120]

I don't see the problem really...

Your new to the project and haven't yet had time to calculate how long it will take you. He has asked you to review the work again and estimate how long it will take.

I'm sorry but you company most employ poor PMs if all you think they are is over-hyped admin assistants, that, or you have no idea what their job actually involves.

I've worked with plenty of PMs in large and small organisations and I know the type mate.

So, either:

a.) You are a PM
b.) You are married/going out with/related to a PM

because no sane human would seek to defend them. They're worse than tax men.

 

[nero120]

So you were asked how long something would take, you gave a guess and couched it as that. You were then asked to spend a little more time looking at it so you can give a firmer time-line. Oh my how terrible! I really don't see what your problem is? Would you have preferred if the PM had said 'no, I think you can do it quicker, get it on my desk by tomorrow'?

Probably made it sound more innocent than it was, and it was just one example of the common behaviour of PMs. No estimate is ever good enough, they want exact time scales when you can't possibly see all pitfalls. The more complex the task the more ancy they get when you give them a figure.

 

[nero120]

Wow, sounds like you need to take a step away from the keyboard and then take a good long hard look at yourself. From what you wrote in the OP, what the PM asked you was perfectly reasonable. If he shouted at you, telling you that you are usless streak of ****, then you could have a good vent.

The OP doesn't really communicate the gollum-like loathsome quality that all PMs posses. Snivelling little creatures.

 

[nero120]

No, I expect developers to estimate how long the tasks will take and what could affect this timing. I don't want them to guess, I want them to estimate.

You seem to have little understanding of how projects actually work, lucking we have PM's to do this.

Believe me, what I tell the PM is a best a judgement as I can make at the time. If you were a decent PM you'd understand that developers cannot give you a precise time, and only when they know a system well can they give accurate estimates.

Unfortuantely you're too engrossed in your time sheets to appreciate this fact.

 

[nero120]

And no doubt when you give them an "estimate" and go over it, it suddenly wasnt an estimate but a deadline! ( im guessing )

Exactly. The point is that they want to hear what they want to hear, say anything else and they get all funny, because they can't come out and say "get it done sooner, my charts won't look right with your estimates because I didn't factor the task in correctly or allow time for unpredicted events!".

 

[nero120]

I should say that some are worse than others, and I'm sure the PMs on this board are very nice

Just sick of the snivelling rat creatures that work at my current place!

 

[nero120]

The guy accepted this, and therefore asked you to review the project and required work in order to be able to give a more informed estimate. Why the issue with this? That's standard practice the world over no matter what kind of manager you are dealing with.

Why are you unable perform a simple task like estimate how long a required item of work will take anyway? Extremely inexperienced, or just a bit ****?

Are you blind? I gave an estimate, which obviously wasn't what the PM wanted. So they ask me to go away and look into it to give them another one.

Bear in mind we are not talking about a week or more's worth of work, it's a few days. It is impossible to be more precise unless you DO THE BLOODY task and them tell them how long it took. I am not in a position to make a more informed estimate as I am not a developer on that project.

Jesus, what is so difficult to grasp here? Any decent PM here would realise that you can't bring a developer onto the team and expect cast iron predictions from them, you can try but be it on your head if things turn out differently.

 

[nero120]

I always over estimate to a safe margin, seems to work

Exactly what I always do. If BY GODS GRACE I doget a decent PM, I'll obviously explain in more detail how my estimate is formed and how decent an estimate it is, but this usually just confuses bad PMs, they want a number, and the specific number that they are thinking of, and nothing else.

 

[nero120]

... and one who got out of the wrong side of bed this morning.

I'll concede this point and this point alone!

 

[nero120]

There comes a point when spending more time trying to decide how long a small task will take, will take longer than the task itself. The problem is the unknowns.

 

[nero120]

Sounds like you are a bit bitter A good PM plays an important role in an organisation.

As does a good developer. Why am I bitter? If I give a PM an estimate I expect them to take it and deal with it, not moan about whatever. I don't moan when a PM gives me a task, I get it done and I try to give them a reasonable estimation as to how long it will take.

They do their job, I do mine, project gets done. Projects fail because PMs are incapable of managing them properly, not because devs are unable to do their tasks.

 

[nero120]

and if it is so easy and overpaid then why pray is the OP not doing it instead of sweating it as a softwear developer?

If I wanted to be despised human filth I would be

 

[nero120]

I guess thats your opinion, I'm sure on a PM forum you'll find PM's saying projects fail because devs are incapable of doing tasks properly. There are two sides to every coin.

It is my opinion, but since it is the PMs responsibility to deliver the project, if his devs are not up to it he can flag it to the program manager, who will reassign/replace them. I think any PM who blames his devs for failing to do his job properly clearly is not worth spit.

 

[nero120]

Oh dear. Definite bitterness here even if you don't care to admit it. Clearly you can't see why the PM earns more money than you, so you rail against it. He is in charge, you write code, get over it.

Bitter about what? I am trying to help them as best I can, but unfortuantely I left my crystal ball at home today

 

[nero120]

Bit confused what the issue is - the PM is there to facilate your work (aswell as others) so its in your best interests to make it plain to them how long x/y/z will take.

Considering you have only started on the project I can understand you were only able to guess the time needed, but I dont understand the issue that the PM has now asked you to review and confirm that guess. Hes not asking for a deadline, just an estimation of when you will deliver...

Seriously sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder and having an issue thats not really there...

ps3ud0

It may sound that way, but onyl because I can't be assed to spell the situation out for everyone here, so I admit I'm bringing this blowback on myself.

Take my word for it, this guy is a snivelling weasle and I'm just venting because I feel like it.

 

[nero120]

Agreed... however I don't think it is unreasonable to expect developers to work with a PM and provide useful estimates and time-scales.. In any large development team you would expect them to be working with some methodology for work-flow planning anyway.. any team that doesn't isnt worth their spit

I agree, but as I've said this task is a few days work, and I am new on the project. In your opinion, exactly what am I supposed to do to make that estimate more precise? Spend more time 'investigating' when I should just be getting this task done? This is a bad PM.

 

[nero120]

Then why start the thread? I know you want some sympathy but you wont get it from here if you cant even be bothered to explain what the exact issue is...

You really are making a pit for yourself - where a personal issue with a colleague is affecting a working relationship - it just doesnt happen when youre a professional...

ps3ud0

I don't want sympathy, I'm just venting. I feel like the slime from this PM is making me dirty and I'm a little afraid okay? Threads have been started for much, much less!

Oh yeah, on another note, there's this girl I like and......

 

[nero120]

say a week

Would not compute with it. Anything over 5 minutes is clearly not acceptable!