Projector vs large TV - Bang for buck

For some reason a few people are having problems understanding the different methods all they see is Eshift and wrongly lump them all together not realizing they are different methods
educate me - is there a description of the shift technology optima use - mechanical(dlp) or 'electronic'(e-shift) there are only a few ways to skin a cat, so to speak,
otherwise why is the differences not down to image processing to prepare the input to those two basic technologies.
 
Or you can run the test vila talked about before. When he lied and said the 1:1 pixel mapped checker board will never run and is impossible to pass.

EDIT: I am sure vila will respond with some strawmen argument on how some other obscure test no one has seen doesn’t pass. But that doesn’t change the fact they lied and the test talked about do pass.

Thing is its not just one test is it there been several links to independent reviews saying it doesn't pass a single pixel test without errors and over a dozen independent reviews posted that say its not native 4k... and the other posters on the thread that say its not native 4k


And still isn't actually 4k.
If you want a true 4k picture, you would probably, realistically, need to double THAT budget
however the technique does limit the ability to get as punchy and sharp image as a "true" 4K projector in an otherwise equal setup -
Sure. But the point is, it isn't a "real" 4K picture. It can't really be, as it's a 4.15 mp
Fake is fake like big paid for B00bies never quiet "natural" looking.
That is kind of debatable AFAIK the method used will cause some softening/inaccuracy across pixel values despite reproducing the correct number of pixels which can be offset by increasing sharpness but that does also reduce the "fidelity" compared to the original source even though it will give you a "4K" image as rendered on the screen.
Many tests for like chroma resolution, etc. it will "pass" but with minor artefacting. Unlike the afore mentioned "3LCD", etc. it is rendering a lot of detail to the screen just there is some compromise of the exact fidelity of that detail compared to the original
the second half of the 4K image is a shift diagonally no ?
so presumably the contents of those pixels have to be interpolated from the original source 4K media that had a uniform grid of pixels, so does that not impact image 'quality'
(indeed - do all the pixels have to be interpolated.)

So are all the reviews, all the test and all the other posters lying and stupid?


I think this might be one of the only accurate statements you've made in the entire thread....
No one is saying the JVC and Epson count as full 4k.

But then you follow it with...
They are different methods which look terrible.
So a JVC looks terrible :rolleyes:
 
educate me - is there a description of the shift technology optima use - mechanical(dlp) or 'electronic'(e-shift) there are only a few ways to skin a cat, so to speak,
otherwise why is the differences not down to image processing to prepare the input to those two basic technologies.

The Barco white paper shows the pixels overlapping.

By Pottsey's definition of Native 4k you could have 4 pixels flashing millions of times to make a native 4k image.
 
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Could a 4K alternate between pixels in a multiple hz of the input signal, so when viewed you would see 4K? For example in a 4K video it displays the even pixels for 1 millisecond, and then odd pixels for 1 millisecond. It processes the 4K to 2K odd/even in a DSP, but only outputs 2K refresh every 1 ms.

That way it will show all 4K, you won't be able to pickup this effect flicking between odd and even pixels because it's too fast.
 
Could a 4K alternate between pixels in a multiple hz of the input signal, so when viewed you would see 4K? For example in a 4K video it displays the even pixels for 1 millisecond, and then odd pixels for 1 millisecond. It processes the 4K to 2K odd/even in a DSP, but only outputs 2K refresh every 1 ms.

That way it will show all 4K, you won't be able to pickup this effect flicking between odd and even pixels because it's too fast.

I think that's how the TI chip works. But then it is comprimised by the fact it can only display fps in multiple of 60 too. So no 4K 24 (well, 23.976) fps playback.
 
A screen will usually be better.

The more expensive screens will have a "better" gain, etc. which can really help to bring out black levels - but you really need to match them up with your projector at those kind of price levels to get the best out of them i.e. some projectors will work with varying degrees of grey screens while others won't.

non-LED bulbs are usually <10,000 hours, LED type bulbs usually 20,000+ hours.

Daylight depends a lot projector to projector and just how much and how direct the daylight is plus distance between the projector and screen, etc.

As its won the What HiFi award for best projector under £1000 I'm going for the Epson EH-TW530. Ref 92" fixed screen my choice is either the 'Sapphire SFSC203' (£279.95) or the far more expensive Vutec Elegante Fixed 92" (799.95). Are you able to better advise me now that I have confirmed which projector I am going for? There is a hell of a difference between the two prices. There really needs to be a clear difference in picture quality to warrant spending almost 3x the price.

Non-LED vs LED - This is optional or you must have one or the other depending on what your projector takes? The Epson is a LCD projector?! Are the bulbs expensive?
 
Actually the Epson which won the What HiFi award seems to have a REALLY bad review from Trusted Reviews which only gave it 3 star. Im a little lost now as to which projector to go for in my price range £500-£700. :o
 
Actually the Epson which won the What HiFi award seems to have a REALLY bad review from Trusted Reviews which only gave it 3 star. Im a little lost now as to which projector to go for in my price range £500-£700. :o
Whats the distance between where the projector will be and the screen as throw distance can vary a lot. Have you been to view any to check if you or anyone watching suffers from the rainbow effect of dlp projectors and do you like sitting in dark rooms?
 
As its won the What HiFi award for best projector under £1000 I'm going for the Epson EH-TW530. Ref 92" fixed screen my choice is either the 'Sapphire SFSC203' (£279.95) or the far more expensive Vutec Elegante Fixed 92" (799.95). Are you able to better advise me now that I have confirmed which projector I am going for? There is a hell of a difference between the two prices. There really needs to be a clear difference in picture quality to warrant spending almost 3x the price.

Non-LED vs LED - This is optional or you must have one or the other depending on what your projector takes? The Epson is a LCD projector?! Are the bulbs expensive?

If you just want a normal cinema style white screen the Sapphire will be good - but if you have a bigger budget i'd strongly urge you to go demo an ALR like a screen with 'react' material.

They can make a massive difference to viewing a projector in a 'lightly decorated' home environment. Not sure what i can link to here but most dealers that sell Draper/Euroscreen can get their fixed frame screens with React material there is also a seller on the bay called av-superstores that sometimes has open box and ex demo react for good prices.

In fact I'd strongly reccomend you find a dealer that can demo a few projectors your interested in to you - a projectors not something to buy without seeing.

A bulb projector will take the tungsten bulb designed for it / LED an LED and laser a laser.

The replacement bulbs for that Epson are £164.86
 
Whats the distance between where the projector will be and the screen as throw distance can vary a lot. Have you been to view any to check if you or anyone watching suffers from the rainbow effect of dlp projectors and do you like sitting in dark rooms?

I will check this tomorrow and revert back to you mate.
 
Could a 4K alternate between pixels in a multiple hz of the input signal, so when viewed you would see 4K? For example in a 4K video it displays the even pixels for 1 millisecond, and then odd pixels for 1 millisecond. It processes the 4K to 2K odd/even in a DSP, but only outputs 2K refresh every 1 ms.

That way it will show all 4K, you won't be able to pickup this effect flicking between odd and even pixels because it's too fast.

It is a little complicated - if it is truly producing discrete pixels on the screen that are identical in value to a UHD/4K source signal then that is effectively no different to true UHD/4K in that respect but you'd potentially have some problems competing with a "true" 4K projector in a like for like scenario in terms of things like contrast/brightness. Most shifters though don't work like this and have overlapping pixels, etc.

I kind of come down a bit between vila and Pottsey on this one as the Optoma system does a very good job for what it has to work with in reproducing UHD on the screen and is a world away from the faked up version of alternative 1080p based pixel shifters - Optoma's image processing (for enhancements) is generally "top draw" stuff - even without pixel shifting it can take a higher resolution source and reproduce it somewhat like nVidia DSR on the screen with a reasonable impression of a higher resolution.
 
educate me - is there a description of the shift technology optima use - mechanical(dlp) or 'electronic'(e-shift) there are only a few ways to skin a cat, so to speak,
otherwise why is the differences not down to image processing to prepare the input to those two basic technologies.
The difference is related to the independent single pixel structures that allow 2 pixels per mirror and the discrete pixels. The e-shift projectors mentioned before do not display the full 4k discrete pixels and they have large overlapping pixels. The Optima doesn’t have large overlapping pixels but displays the full discrete pixels at the correct size. Discrete being the key word as that is what is allowing the Optima to do 1:1 pixel mapping and pass.

The funny thing is after I describe how some sites are being deceitful Vila goes straight to one of those sites and does the same deceitful thing himself. That says a lot about him.

I bring this up as it’s related directly to the difference in the methods. In that link Vila posted this morning they said eshift projector do not count as 4k due to large overlapping pixels and not being able to display perfect vertical or horizontal line, that’s 1/3840 of the screen width. They then mention how 1:1 pixel mapped test patterns failed to display correctly which is all true. Even though Vila lied its clear none of that applies to the optima which has the correct sized none overlapping full 4k discrete pixels and passes the 1:1 test pattern and displays the perfect vertical or horizontal line.

While Vila likes to say he has posted lots of reviews & tests they are not valid if you read and understand them. He keeps posting evidence from projectors based on the eshift method with large overlapping pixels. For example he said “they even test one and say it didn’t pass a one pixel wide colour change test”

That’s just Vila being deceitful as when you look at the difference in methods you see the evidence Vila posts only applies to the eshift projectors with large overlapping pixels and not the Optima. Those failed test patterns and failed perfect vertical or horizontal lines where not run on the Optima but the already established e-shift projectors which use a clearly different method.

The key difference in methods is.

Optima display the full discrete pixels and pass’s the main 1:1 mapped test patterns.
Overlapping large pixel E-shift projectors do not display the full discrete pixels and do not pass 1:1 mapped test patterns.

Optima has no large overlapping pixels and can display each individual pixel in a perfect vertical or horizontal line, that’s 1/3840 of the screen width.
Overlapping large pixel E-shift projectors have large overlapping pixels and cannot display perfect vertical or horizontal line, that’s 1/3840 of the screen width.

Optima has the full 8.3 million individual pixels on screen for true 4k.
Overlapping large pixel E-shift projectors have around 6 million individual pixels on screen vastly short of true 4k.

Clearly they are very different methods and vila so called evidence based on Overlapping E-shift projectors doesn't apply to the Optima.

Like Vila a few websites out there do not understand the difference between Optimas method and the Overlapping large pixel E-shift method. Some of the websites wrongly assumed the Optima runs in the same way as the Overlapping E-shift method and wrongly assume the Optima has the same problems as the Overlapping E-shift method. Which is why when Vila lied and said some things are impossible on the Optima it was really very possible.

Posting links to those websites proves nothing apart from those websites do not know what they are talking about.
 
The Optima doesn’t have large overlapping pixels

Apart from the Barco white paper on the XPR chips that shows the pixels overlap on the shift?

Even though Vila lied its clear none of that applies to the optima which has the correct sized none overlapping full 4k discrete pixels and passes the 1:1 test pattern and displays the perfect vertical or horizontal line.

While Vila likes to say he has posted lots of reviews & tests they are not valid if you read and understand them. He keeps posting evidence from projectors based on the eshift method with large overlapping pixels. For example he said “they even test one and say it didn’t pass a one pixel wide colour change test”

I haven't lied I've posted the findings of independent reviews ;

https://www.projectorreviews.com/th...ors-look-true-4k-4k-uhd-1080p-pixel-shifters/
This looks at the Benq 8050

https://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/optoma-uhd65-4k-home-theater-projector-review/
This looked at the UHD65

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/dlps-4k-really-4k
This looked at the BenQ HT9050 and Optoma UHD65

All use the same XPR chip and these reviews say its not native 4k and confirm that the pixels overlap as shown in white paper written by a manufacturer using the chip.

That’s just Vila being deceitful as when you look at the difference in methods you see the evidence Vila posts only applies to the eshift projectors with large overlapping pixels and not the Optima.

Clearly they are very different methods and vila so called evidence based on Overlapping E-shift projectors doesn't apply to the Optima.

All the reviews clearly look at projectors using the XPR chip as used in the Optoma.

when Vila lied...

Sure, me all the reviewers from independent websites and others on this thread - just not you right?

Sorry I really shouldn’t have responded more so after I said I wouldn't but I felt like I had to defend myself
I am not wasting any more time with you.
Anyway derailed the thread enough now, not posting more on this.
Well I am not posting anymore on the projector but I will defend myself.

Pathetic
 
lol guys you could always argue directly via trust!

Seen as you both seem to know a lot... Perhaps you could give me some advice on my questions :p
 
lol guys you could always argue directly via trust!

Seen as you both seem to know a lot... Perhaps you could give me some advice on my questions :p

To be fair mate I've put the effort in to respond directly to a few of your questions.
 
lol guys you could always argue directly via trust!

Seen as you both seem to know a lot... Perhaps you could give me some advice on my questions :p
I am not wasting time doing that and arguing via trust. He picks websites known to be fake and wrong and cherry picks information then ignores any evidence that disagrees with his viewpoint. Instead of posting valid counter points he falls back to personal attacks and name calling. There is no point trying to have a discussion with someone like that.

Just look on his lies about the checker board 1:1 pattern. I prove it is possible and I get called names instead of valid counter points.

But if this bothers other people like Rroff, who I have respect for, they only have to ask and I will stop.
 
The difference is related to the independent single pixel structures that allow 2 pixels per mirror and the discrete pixels. The e-shift projectors mentioned before do not display the full 4k discrete pixels and they have large overlapping pixels. The Optima doesn’t have large overlapping pixels but displays the full discrete pixels at the correct size. Discrete being the key word as that is what is allowing the Optima to do 1:1 pixel mapping and pass.
Thanks for the explanation, although looking back I should have read the complete thread first ;)

(famous last words) seems to me that the e-shift is not fundamentally different to the optical actuators in the optima, it is shifting the image so that the pixels will overlap with the adjacent ones, with the softening and reduced pixel boundary defintion that would incur.
the mirrors after all, are covering 90%+ of the surface area of the dlp device see http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dlp660te.pdf , so unless you were able to mask part of a mirror on one frame you have no other option.
The subjective benefit of the optima must just come down to the higher native pixel count of 2716x1528 versus the e-shift with only 2k/1920x1080.


However, if the new dlp used in the Benq x4 shift dlp has micromirrors with pixel size spaces between them, then maybe that can solve the problem ?
 
I am not wasting time doing that and arguing via trust. He picks websites known to be fake and wrong and cherry picks information then ignores any evidence that disagrees with his viewpoint. Instead of posting valid counter points he falls back to personal attacks and name calling. There is no point trying to have a discussion with someone like that.

Just look on his lies about the checker board 1:1 pattern. I prove it is possible and I get called names instead of valid counter points.

But if this bothers other people like Rroff, who I have respect for, they only have to ask and I will stop.

Avforums, Projector Reviews, Techchruch, Sound and Vision, Barco.... how are any of these websites "known to be fake?"

Your post's are all directed at me littered with personal attacks and name calling, despite other people also pointing out the facts to you.

The projector (and XPR chips) are not native 4k, they have a non standard UHD panel 2716x1528 and uses shifting to double it pixels that overlap.
 
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