PS3 vs 360 : A developers POV

[Manlove is my forte]

But if (according to the article) the 360 is so incredibly powerful, intelligently designed and made so convenient to program for, then why does it suffer at all? especially when you consider it has been on the market a full year longer and as I recall development kits were sent out long before PS3 ones were.

1) PS3 and 360 dev kits have been available for about the same time (PS3 did have supply issues with later releases iirc)
2) PS3 is 9 months Late. Its standards and prototypes have been in place for well over a year.
3) It has been the first Gen games that have suffered (and maybe a few second ones, Personally I define the second Generation of 360 games as starting on the GoW launch.
4) Programming is not as simple as laying bricks. Once you have been shown the best way to lay bricks you can follow that method for the rest of your brick laying career.
Programming is a skill that evolves even during the life-cycle of one project. Things that were not possible on previouse generations now are, things that worked well last time do not. There may be new and better approaches to performing tasks, development menthodologies may change, etc.

You make a very complex task like programming a computer game, sound like something as simple as laying bricks. Its quite obviously not. As I said in an earlier post. There appears to have been an element of garbage in, garbage out in these title. Most likely due to time constraints. So the developers did not have time to refine all the code and eliminate all the graphical glitches, and the testers probably did not have time to identify all the graphical glitches. YOU CAN NOT BLAIM THE CONSOLE FOR HUMAN ERROR IN THE CODING!!!

 

[Caustic]

Okay, I can't help but comment on this post. Full of gems!

If coding was done correctly, The 7 cell processor would be a better performer than the 3 core.

So 7 is always faster than 3? Regardless of capabilites?

Metal Gear Solid 4 impliments Cell technology ...

So they what, write code for it, just like a PS3 game has to, to run on the PS3. Thats like saying HL2 impliments PC technology! Somebody has run afoul of a marketing release.

I could go on, but it wouldn't do much good. After all, this thread is just a waste of time. Mods? Oh Mods? Beat this thread down with the closing stick.

 

[Joebob]

all this talk of Blu Ray HD-DVD with large storage capacity isnt relivant if content is going to be downloaded in the future. The future is downloads, networks and removable storage not some optical format.

I agree that the future is downloads but we are no where near there yet and I think Devs will be releasing games on optical format for quite a few years to come. I mean downloading PC games has been available for several years and yet it's only just starting to gather any momentum at all.

 

[gord]

Here is where my first problem is, He's giving a performance analysis. Yet he doesnt comment on actual performance. He comments on coding. Performance wise, If coding was done correctly, The 7 cell processor would be a better performer than the 3 core.

Im fairly sure you just quoted against your point. You quoted "On paper, the PS3 is more powerful. In reality, it’s quite inferior to the 360". Yes, so he is saying the PS3 cell is more powerful, but ultimately you cant use that power at the moment due to the coding required for it. Thus at this period in time the xbox is more powerful. Analogy: "i have 5 apples, but i can only eat 2, you have 3 apples and can eat all 3.. you win".

Metal Gear Solid 4 impliments Cell technology, It's one of the main points that kojima productions has been pushing about the game. It's also looking stunning, and i'm sure if they can do it other companies can.

Im afraid you being sure isnt very concrete. Infact, they probably have one of the largest budgets of all the developers for PS3 and an extremely skilled team. MGS4 will be the PS3's top title alongside GT for some time i think. The screenshots shown were also somewhat lower quality than the video that amazed everyone, which left a lot disappointed. We must see more of this game.

I mean these reviews are talking like programmers have a choice! If they are told to code for 7 cells and they want a job, They damn well better do it! and if they don't know how, then they will find themselves jobless and someone who can do it will be in their place!

Wrong! In the past coders have learnt to program linearly. Development tools since the beginning of the computing age have been honed to develop for singular core processors. Only now do we see multiple core, multiple threaded computer games. Coding for which is almost an entirely new practice (see comments by John Carmack). Coders can turn around and say, "we can do this but its going to take 5 years" to which project managers will say "well we dont have the time, what can you compromise to".

Can't really argue with this, Yes the graphics processing unit is better on the xbox, and the bandwidth is also 'wider' which is where the slowing on PS3 comes from. At this moment in time, With games that arent coded for Cell we'll see the PS3 not looking as pretty as the 360. Now I do think tho, In the future *glares into his crystal ball* That as games become more and more complex that the 360 will have to reduce graphics to compensate for the highly complex gaming physics, Where as the PS3 will keep the same graphics as it currently has, And the cell will take care of any physics, etc. I'm not saying the graphics will be better on the PS3, at this point, I'm sure they will be quite similar.

Interesting comment, neither here nor there really though. Speculation of the highest order that you cant really reply to.

A PS3 is designed as a gaming machine, If you put in a game it will run, after 3 years of gaming it should still run games! I understand this guy is talking DVD's but the comment is still the same! The drive is designed to take a battering(a lot of usage, Not covering them in batter and deep frying) He's clutching at straws with this comment.

Wrong. The xbox and ps3 are now multimedia entertainment centres. They are no longer solely gaming machines (wii territory). The guy is actually using the experience of the PS2 as an example of what may happen to PS3.. rather an incongruous statement from him i will admit. From what ive seen i think the PS3 has rather high build quality in terms of components. Well, i hope so.. for its own sake.

 

[degen]

Everytime I read joebobs posts it brings a smile to my face. I can almost imagine him nearly in tears as he tries to defend his PS3 and then deny that he isn't. Why don't you just give up and sell it on ebay joebob. O wait u'd probally be at a loss then because they are pretty much selling at their RRP. o dear i mentioned ebay overclockers might lose business
GOOOOOOD night and whine some more

 

[wannabedamned]

Im fairly sure you just quoted against your point. You quoted "On paper, the PS3 is more powerful. In reality, it’s quite inferior to the 360". Yes, so he is saying the PS3 cell is more powerful, but ultimately you cant use that power at the moment due to the coding required for it. Thus at this period in time the xbox is more powerful. Analogy: "i have 5 apples, but i can only eat 2, you have 3 apples and can eat all 3.. you win".

Im afraid you being sure isnt very concrete. Infact, they probably have one of the largest budgets of all the developers for PS3 and an extremely skilled team. MGS4 will be the PS3's top title alongside GT for some time i think. The screenshots shown were also somewhat lower quality than the video that amazed everyone, which left a lot disappointed. We must see more of this game.

Wrong! In the past coders have learnt to program linearly. Development tools since the beginning of the computing age have been honed to develop for singular core processors. Only now do we see multiple core, multiple threaded computer games. Coding for which is almost an entirely new practice (see comments by John Carmack). Coders can turn around and say, "we can do this but its going to take 5 years" to which project managers will say "well we dont have the time, what can you compromise to".

Interesting comment, neither here nor there really though. Speculation of the highest order that you cant really reply to.

Wrong. The xbox and ps3 are now multimedia entertainment centres. They are no longer solely gaming machines (wii territory). The guy is actually using the experience of the PS2 as an example of what may happen to PS3.. rather an incongruous statement from him i will admit. From what ive seen i think the PS3 has rather high build quality in terms of components. Well, i hope so.. for its own sake.

Nicely done, A none fanboy reply.

Yeah i know next gen consoles are designed as multimedia systems, But it will always be firstly and foremost a gaming machine, I mean come on. If it didnt play games, would you buy it?

As for the speculation on the graphics card, yes you are right, but it just seems to be speculation that makes sense, To me anyways.

--

As for the coding for multiple cells, Are there not people in the world that can do it fluently like they can single core. I mean the world is made up of a lot of people, and japan is by far the most advanced technological in the world. I'm sure there are many people than can do it.

 

[wannabedamned]

Everytime I read joebobs posts it brings a smile to my face. I can almost imagine him nearly in tears as he tries to defend his PS3 and then deny that he isn't. Why don't you just give up and sell it on ebay joebob. O wait u'd probally be at a loss then because they are pretty much selling at their RRP. o dear i mentioned ebay overclockers might lose business
GOOOOOOD night and whine some more

Degen, Is that short for degenerate? If so it suits you.

1. Get rid of the competitor.

2. Don't attack joebob

3. Lose the fanboy approach.

-

BTW, In my opinon Degen is an alias for someone else on the forum that doesnt want to risk his main account banning.

 

[gord]

As for the coding for multiple cells, Are there not people in the world that can do it fluently like they can single core. I mean the world is made up of a lot of people, and japan is by far the most advanced technological in the world. I'm sure there are many people than can do it.

In terms of me being a fanboy, if you can put up a logical argument against mine then please do so. (apologies if you wernt calling me a fanboy, as you can imagine trying to put valid points across can be interpreted differently by many people and the majority of which assume you are a fanboy)

But once more, you being sure there are many people that can do it, doesnt quite make concrete evidence. You are wrong. The concept of coding for multiple core architectures is different, it is infact against human nature. We as beings are linear thought processors. We do things linearly, we like to complete one task before moving on, which has been echoed in the development of the computer, until now. Now we are faced with multiple cores, and utilising all of the architecture available, efficiently, will be an ongoing process for many years. Coding for single core processors is no science, but it has been honed through experience. Imagine that experience being worth very little now.

 

[Joebob]

Degen, Is that short for degenerate? If so it suits you.

1. Get rid of the competitor.

2. Don't attack joebob

3. Lose the fanboy approach.

-

BTW, In my opinon Degen is an alias for someone else on the forum that doesnt want to risk his main account banning.

Lol, I missed his original post until you replied. What a complete moron!!! Thanks for the reply wannabedamned and yeah I agree that it's an alias to protect another users account, he has only made three posts and two of them were attacking me

Now where have I put my tissues... I'm gonna start crying again because I bought a PS3 - boo hoo hoo! Hold on, surely I could just pop out and buy another console if I thought I had made a mistake?

 

[Manlove is my forte]

I'm not sure if there is even a programming language that is particularly adept at multi-processor functionality, if I'm honest.

 

[Joebob]

I think the word Fanboy is used FAR too much in these threads, I mean we have all read thre stupid threads you get posted under news/reviews etc on sites like kotaku and some remarks are just so not thought through and outlandish and usually in chavvie "txt ***", so they are blatently what could be labelled as fanboys. But most people on the OcUK forums seem to be fairly decent people who put a decent point of view across. It's one of the reasons I come on here, to have reasonable debates or discussions etc and I always find people very helpful if you have a problem you need answering quickly. So ok, some people understanably have a bias view of their prefered console, which is completely undertsandable as it's human nature, but that doesn't warrant labelling them fanboys - and yes I know have have used the word myslelf a few times and all I can say is that I appologise (unless you deserved it ).

Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest!

 

[wannabedamned]

I think the word Fanboy is used FAR too much in these threads, I mean we have all read thre stupid threads you get posted under news/reviews etc on sites like kotaku and some remarks are just so not thought through and outlandish and usually in chavvie "txt ***", so they are blatently what could be labelled as fanboys. But most people on the OcUK forums seem to be fairly decent people who put a decent point of view across. It's one of the reasons I come on here, to have reasonable debates or discussions etc and I always find people very helpful if you have a problem you need answering quickly. So ok, some people understanably have a bias view of their prefered console, which is completely undertsandable as it's human nature, but that doesn't warrant labelling them fanboys - and yes I know have have used the word myslelf a few times and all I can say is that I appologise (unless you deserved it ).

Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest!

pfft, Fanboy

 

[barnettgs]

I think the word Fanboy is used FAR too much in these threads.

True fanboy always complains about the word 'fanboy' but non-fanboy doesn't complains. Isn't that obvious?

 

[Joebob]

pfft, Fanboy

Oooh, y'couldn't resist could you?

 

[Joebob]

True fanboy always complains about the word 'fanboy' but non-fanboy doesn't complains. Isn't that obvious?

D'oh!

 

["andy"]

double possssst

 

["andy"]

source ?

anyone could have wrote that quote from the OP ?

people always forget the ps3 isnt just about games and compare it to the 360 gameswise too , why ?

 

[gord]

people always forget the ps3 isnt just about games and compare it to the 360 gameswise too , why ?

What?!.. PS3 plays games, Xbox plays games.. PS3 plays HD, Xbox plays HD, PS3 has a CPU, Xbox has a CPU..

Can you rephrase your why question please?

 

[Joebob]

What?!.. PS3 plays games, Xbox plays games.. PS3 plays HD, Xbox plays HD, PS3 has a CPU, Xbox has a CPU..

Can you rephrase your why question please?

He could be talking about it having a BD player and the fact you can install Linux on it and essentially use it as a PC... don't flame me, thats just what I think he was saying!

 

[Demon]

I always take these anonymous statements with a pinch of salt..

Whenever I look at the blurb going around, all I see is how 'equal' the consoles are.

We have on one side, more processing power (without doubt) in the Cell Architecture of the PS3. But then on the other side we have a better graphics setup and more memory on the 360.

The net effect to me seems to be an equal platform.
On the PS3, If devs can use the cell processors to better effect, then this will be to make up for the lack of graphics performance, offloading some of it to the Cell processors. Of course this means that you now have less cores available for the main game code..
On the 360, the more powerful graphics side means the 3 core's don't need to help the graphics chips out as much, with a net effect of being equal.

I also don't buy into the argument that the PS3 devs are 12-18months behind and that first gen PS3 can be fairly compared to first gen Xbox360, this may be true of some 3rd party houses, but not the in-house games, we all know development of most titles started at the same time as the 360, I remember games like Motorstorm and other big titles being shown only slightly after PGR3 etc..

I don't think we really care do we?? I'd be happy with games just stayed at the 'technical' level of GoW and devs started concentrating on game play etc, and the things that really matter, rather then bowing to our willy waving antics and just trying to outdo each other on who can produce the prettiest graphics...