Pursuit predation - Humans are amazing

[Tuppy_Glossop]

If you took their max speed and assumed they could hold that for a marathon. That is as flawed as saying a 100m runner could finish a marathon in an hour. In particular the African hunters will frequently use pursuit predation on antelope and out run them.


The point is, humans have a much higher endurance than almost any animal, and much better mechanisms to cope with over heating,

I understand your point but I specifically picked these two creatures because they have endurance too. An ostrich's top speed is approx 50mph. At that speed they *would* finish the marathon in approx half an hour. As you say, they can't keep up their top speed for that distance, so my quoted time is derived from a speed that is sustainable over that distance. Don't take my word for it, try searching on "ostrich running endurance". The trick is the efficiency. The same is true for the Pronghorn Antelope (which lives in North America so isn't that fussed by North African hunters).

Furthermore these animals can do it without specific training for the task.

 

[Angilion]

It's funny but you made me think of an old colleague of mine who is a pro cycling coach. He's trained some of the best cyclists in the country although not the top ones. I remember seeing him talking to a group of teens and the subject of diet came up. They were all talking about high protein, high carb diets and what was best etc. His answer - vegetables. When he got his students to increase their vegetable intake their performance went up.

It's not even a new idea. The evidence we have strongly indicates that professional gladiators in ancient Rome (who were extremely well trained athletes in superb condition) rarely ate meat. It seems that the favoured diet for optimal physical condition in ancient Rome was almost entirely grains and vegetables, with powdered burnt animal bones being used as a supplement (probably for calcium, maybe B12 as well since you can't get that from plants).

 

[Judgeneo]

Not really true at all. Quadrupeds do have distinct gaits, so there is a big difference between a walk and a faster run for them. However, switching between gaits is not inefficient at all. In fact it is very efficient. Humans do the same, adding walking stretches to runs to reduce overall metabolic costs. In your scenario the animal could in theory just go at a fast pace for a long time to evade, and then slow down for a decent length. It has been well shown that a horse for example can efficiently alternate between run and walk gaits and for an endurance horse race this ability is required.

The Human wins due to endurance and ability to regulate temperatures better. Most mammals just get too fatigued and collapse form severe exhaustion.

Thanks, looks like I probably remembered it wrong. I think that I meant though, that yes the animal would run at a fast pace until it thinks it is out of danger, but would be quickly be back in danger again because the human isn't running much slower than its fast pace, which means before long it would have to run quick again, and that running at the enhanced speed is much more tiring than running at the slower one, so the more time you get your prey to spend in its most tiring mode, the better.

 

[D.P.]

I understand your point but I specifically picked these two creatures because they have endurance too. An ostrich's top speed is approx 50mph. At that speed they *would* finish the marathon in approx half an hour. As you say, they can't keep up their top speed for that distance, so my quoted time is derived from a speed that is sustainable over that distance. Don't take my word for it, try searching on "ostrich running endurance". The trick is the efficiency. The same is true for the Pronghorn Antelope (which lives in North America so isn't that fussed by North African hunters).

Furthermore these animals can do it without specific training for the task.

They have much more limited endurance. The whole point is an Ostrich doesn't have the endurance to run a marathon at 50MPH. There is some shorter distance for which it will leave a human in the starting blocks, not sure what, maybe 5k, but it doesn't take long before these animals either overheat or fatigue and deplete glycogen reserves. We can apply your logic to humans as well, if we scale 800meter times to a marathon distance then Humans could complete a marathon in under 90 minutes. And metabolically, 800m is considered an endurance run since it is still about 90% aerobic.

the training aspect is debatable. Animals train simply by living their lives. Modern western humans sit in an office, so to develop their evolutionary and genetic potential we need to do explicit training. Those African hunters don;t train, they just live their lives and naturally become endurance runners. Some central American Indians are similar, runnign 50-100 miles for a hunting or foraging trip. I know a guy that runs nearly 15 miles too work, and then back again Monday to friday. He doesn't call that training, just commuting because his family can only afford 1 car and it just makes it easier for his family if the wife and kids have the car. On Saturdays he will run 25-35 miles, again he claims not for training, just for fun in the same way people play sports or go to the cinema.

 

[D.P.]

Thanks, looks like I probably remembered it wrong. I think that I meant though, that yes the animal would run at a fast pace until it thinks it is out of danger, but would be quickly be back in danger again because the human isn't running much slower than its fast pace, which means before long it would have to run quick again, and that running at the enhanced speed is much more tiring than running at the slower one, so the more time you get your prey to spend in its most tiring mode, the better.

I totally get your point and there is some logic in it but it is not really applicable since the animals goal is to keep some time window ahead of the hunter. Most quadrupeds have 3 gaits: walk, canter/jog, and gallop/sprint. Within the sweets pot of each pace the animal is relatively efficient, and if it need to move at a speed between these gaits then they know to naturally switch between gaits , so the antelope etc. can maintain a pace between walk and jog by switching without loosing energy.

The real difference is Huamns are just much more efficient, and have better ways to help control overheating or supply additional liquids. Bipedal running is much more efficient than quadruped running, we can sweat way more, we can carry water, we have larger glycogen reserves, no fur that traps heat. Our legs are extrmely evolved to run efficiently, like the kangaroo which has very elastic Achilles tendons that act like a spring and store energy, human legs are just the same and over 505 of the rebound energy is returned during takeoff. Our legs are pretty specialized. Then there are some obvious things, as shown in the video they chose the animal with the largest horns because they are heavier. Animals are in an evolutionary tug of war. Huamn's downside in runnign is our large and heavy brain that burns a lot of glycogen. of course our brain provides many other useful advantages so it was a trade off worth ahvign in our evolutionary past.

 

[Judgeneo]

I totally get your point and there is some logic in it but it is not really applicable since the animals goal is to keep some time window ahead of the hunter. Most quadrupeds have 3 gaits: walk, canter/jog, and gallop/sprint. Within the sweets pot of each pace the animal is relatively efficient, and if it need to move at a speed between these gaits then they know to naturally switch between gaits , so the antelope etc. can maintain a pace between walk and jog by switching without loosing energy.

The real difference is Huamns are just much more efficient, and have better ways to help control overheating or supply additional liquids. Bipedal running is much more efficient than quadruped running, we can sweat way more, we can carry water, we have larger glycogen reserves, no fur that traps heat. Our legs are extrmely evolved to run efficiently, like the kangaroo which has very elastic Achilles tendons that act like a spring and store energy, human legs are just the same and over 505 of the rebound energy is returned during takeoff. Our legs are pretty specialized. Then there are some obvious things, as shown in the video they chose the animal with the largest horns because they are heavier. Animals are in an evolutionary tug of war. Huamn's downside in runnign is our large and heavy brain that burns a lot of glycogen. of course our brain provides many other useful advantages so it was a trade off worth ahvign in our evolutionary past.

Gotcha, thats the bit I didn't realise before. Ta dude

 

[D.P.]

There is likely a couple of calories lost accelerating but it is not significant in any way.

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

SNIP

I realise you have made your mind up. This guy studied ostrich locomotion efficiency for his PhD, I'll trust his conclusions over your assertions.

 

[Angilion]

I realise you have made your mind up. This guy studied ostrich locomotion efficiency for his PhD, I'll trust his conclusions over your assertions.

That article provides detailed information on how ostriches are physiologically very well adapted to running very fast and very efficiently, but it has no information on how far an ostrich can run in any given amount of time other than an unsubstantiated claim that an ostrich could run a marathon in 40 minutes (which is apparently calculated by assuming an ostritch maintaining its maximum sprint speed of ~70 Km/h for a whole marathon).

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

It's true the author uses somewhat ambiguous language around the claim ('could') but where is the definitive data on ostrich endurance at different speeds? Who has really studied sub-sprint ostrich endurance? This woman brought up ostriches from the egg so that she could. I suppose it really depends upon the precise formulation of the problem. Is it just that the ostrich doesn't understand the challenge and can't pace itself properly? Or are we saying there are specific speeds a human can run at for longer than an ostrich?

Anyway, GD is clever enough to do its own research and make its own mind up

 

[Angilion]

It's true the author uses somewhat ambiguous language around the claim ('could') but where is the definitive data on ostrich endurance at different speeds? Who has really studied sub-sprint ostrich endurance? This woman brought up ostriches from the egg so that she could. I suppose it really depends upon the precise formulation of the problem. Is it just that the ostrich doesn't understand the challenge and can't pace itself properly? Or are we saying there are specific speeds a human can run at for longer than an ostrich?

Anyway, GD is clever enough to do its own research and make its own mind up

I once saw a video of an ostrich running alongside a car doing ~40mph apparently for a couple of miles and apparently just for fun. I'm open to the idea that ostriches do have extraordinary endurance running ability, but there isn't any definitive data. The person you refer to did not study ostrich endurance running at all (or if they did, they didn't mention it in that article). What they studied was ostrich bones, muscles and ligaments related to running and ostrich running characteristics (e.g. the pressure exerted by its claws at different speeds). They didn't study other aspects related to endurance running (breathing, heat shedding, glycogen usage, etc) nor did they study ostriches running for any significant distance. Their information is great for what it covers, but extrapolating from short runs on a test course to long runs is a lot more speculative.

I keep typing 'ostritch' instead of 'ostrich'.

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

I was faced with the assertion that humans can 'endurance run' better than ostriches without any evidence or acceptable data on ostriches. Being a scientist I thought I'd check it out before deciding. My research brought me to this academic who suggests (NB: not asserts) that an ostrich could run a marathon in 40 mins, again without ostrich endurance data. I went further than the article linked and read the PhD, which has as its first line, "As the fastest long-endurance runner, the bipedal ostrich (Struthiocamelus) was selected as a prime model organism to investigate the physical attributes..." but without a reference or any evidence. Later in the introduction she references a handful of other works regarding maximal effort endurance (30 mins appaz) and how at lower intensities they have been observed to keep moving throughout daylight hours. I didn't follow up those references because, frankly, it isn't *that* interesting. Faced with the two assertions I decided that Ostrich Woman seemed to have more knowledge of ostriches and less confirmation bias. And was less shouty. So I lean towards her assertion, without completely dismissing the other. As a bonus, I like to imagine the shoutiest, most intransigent posters get riled when you disagree with them

 

[D.P.]

No where in your linked article is there any reference to evidence of an Ostrich running long distances. There is extrapolation and conjecture from short distance speeds.

Now, the ostrich is undoubtedly extremely fast, and being bipedal will be a fair bit more efficient than quadrupeds. But they still lack the main adaptations that humans have such as glycogen storage and excessive seat glands. Moreover, the lack of opposable thumbs and tool use precludes carrying water, which is a critical capability of human endurance runners.

Maybe an ostrich could outrun a human over a marathon distance, there is no clear evidence of this but I would be willing to accept it. But a marathon is not even a long distance for human runners, would the ostrich still keep iup at 50 miles? 100 mile? 200 miles? I think not. It is not clear if the mass of featehrs would not simply be a big hindrance at a prolonged endurance run, trapping heat. I know at rest the feather protect form the sun but they are liekly not develooped to help over a 6 hour runnign window.


Another animal that in the right conditions will beat a human is a camel in the desert heat. Over 30-35*C a human cannot keep cool at even a moderate running pace, a camel can out pace a human quite easily here. Plus their hoofs work very well on sand. one major trick p their sleeve is a massive water bottle which they also use as AC.


None of this detracts from the point that Humans are one of they best and most efficient endurance runners in the entire animal kingdom. There are almost no animals, just a few exceptions that are comparable or better. And some of them have limits, e.g. sled dogs can't cool themselves enough in even moderate temperatures, horses need suitable terrain.

 

[Rifte]

Amazing video.

When I think of endurance creatures, humans have never come into the equation until now.

On a trip to Alaska about 10 years ago I was speaking to a guy in the hotel I was staying in who lost his dog recently to a pack of wolves. He lived in Alaska and ran local excursions for tourists. He said it wasn't uncommon for a wolf to run over 75 to a 100 miles in a day. If true and in those conditions.....that's a hell of an animal.

 

[MBennett]

Slightly changing the subject but if you liked that then you would love the Lord Robert Winston program on human instincts - it’s been awhile since I last saw it nearly 20 years ago but the general idea is that we are top dog because we have MORE basic instincts than all other species:

https://youtu.be/ugSYF1iZxnU

 

[El CabaIlo]

Many of the top runners, cyclists and triathletes are vegetarian or vegan. You need massive amounts of carbs for this kind of training, the pros will max out at around 80-90% carbs in their diet. Although this will involve pasat/potatoes etc, it is undoubtedly better to eat more vegetables that contains more vitamins and minerals, more fiber and small amounts of protein.

Sorry for bumping this thread but I came across this forum and some of this discussion made me laugh.

We adapted this long distance formula precisely to chase down large meaty meals, all of that work just to get to be a vegatarian?

The assumption that the majority of endurance athletes is false here too as an endurance athlete myself. Protein and iron are essential for long distance runners, yes carbs make up a huge proportion of an athletes diet but not anywhere in the region of 80-90%. The most carb heavy endurance athletes in the world eat 60-70% carbs. Proteins and fats makes up the rest.

Back to proteins and iron, while vegetable diets can provide high levels of protein, plants protein is weaker than animal protein per gram which requires high amounts of food intake. Also, plant based diets cannot produce high levels of whey or casein protein like you get in milk, whey protein is very important in exercise recovery because it is a fast acting protein which means muscle repair and recovery can start almost immediately post exercise which means you can train harder and sooner on the next workout and volume and frequency of training are two of if not the most important aspects in endurance training.Vegatarian and vegan athletes also have difficulty. A plant based diet also has consequences on B12 and ferretin levels as B12 is essential in the absorbtion of iron and health of red blood cells which are critical in transporting oxygen from your lungs to the mitochondria in your muscle cells for the creation of ATP energy which drives your muscles. B12 is also of huge importance in protecting your Nervous system as even a mild deficiency of B12 causes damage to myelin sheath that surrounds your nerves and causes dysfunction. Any athletic or any movement is neuromuscular in nature so any damage and dysfunction of your nervous system causes a lag between your brain and muscles which manifests itself as weakness of fatigue through loss of efficiency in the nervous system and running/cycling economy which is one of the golden trifecta of human endurance performance along with aerobic capacity and lactate threshold.

It's a misconception that because endurance athletes eat a lot of starchy slow release carbs like pasta, beans, rice and breads that there is no meat or animal products involved. Even the very top Kenyan athletes eat meat and dairy products alongside dishes like ugali and copious amounts of sugar in their tea. Meat is hard to come by in these countries as they are poor with little livestock but THEY DO eat meat and the vast majority of all endurance athletes are not vegatarian and very few are vegan.

 

[Cooler running]

How far I've fallen. *muches some chicken dippers*.