Rafa's Rotating - Myth or Not?

Don
Joined
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This has been a much talked about topic for the last few years now and im watching 'you're on sky sports' and some of the stuff Graham Stuart is saying is just simply stupid.

There are 2 points i just wanted to make regarding this talk of rotation, 1 of which being pretty crucial and i would imagine will suprise a few people.

1. Firstly people don't seem understand the reason why Benitez does rotate (Andy Gray in particular); you keep hearing people going on about Benitez thinks players are tired and can't play 3 games in a week when in actual fact Benitez has came out and said that players can play 20-30 games in a row but if you want them to be fresh enough to compete at the business end of the season when trophies are up for stake then you must give them rests during the season. Now thats a matter of opinion but if you look at Liverpool's record towards the back end of the season, particuarly in the cups and there performance over the Christmas period where the fixtures are all piled up, Liverpool have had that freshness and our results have shown that.

2. Secondly i keep hearing people (press and on here) that the reason why Chelsea and Utd have had more success in the League is because Fergie and JM kept a stable side and Benitez kept making changes, well thats simply just bs. I don't want to take too much credit for this because i was a bit suprised at this when i read it but there was an article a while back that brought up a few stats that prove this talk that Rafa rotates more is bs:
Paul Tomkins said:
Rather than rotation being the rot that eats away at the core of Liverpool’s title challenges, it’s the criticism that’s rotten. You don't believe me? Read on ...

In his new role as Setanta Sports' analyst, ex-Red Steve McManaman stated a few weeks ago that Benítez needed to rotate less to win the league. He was far from alone in expressing that belief; I don't mean to single him out, but he was just the first to mention it this pre-season.

I can barely turn on a sports channel or read a newspaper opinion piece without hearing it trotted out like some brainwashing mantra. No wonder people believe it. I even stopped reading the Premier League previews, and just searched for the word 'rotation' within. A couple of times it didn't appear in a piece; upon further investigation, another phrase had been chosen to explain Benitez's 'folly'. Same accusations, different wording.

It's become received wisdom, passed on in acts of laziness that pass as analysis.

Rotation is by its nature difficult to assess, as often you cannot say for sure if players were rested, suspended, injured, or left out for essential tactical purposes. Only the management know why team selections are made, as well as how the players were looking in training in the build up. Long gone are the days of settled sides and 14 players featuring all season long. For Benitez, any team change is labelled 'rotation'.

And of course, rotation is only mentioned after defeats, never after long runs of victories. Benitez was criticised during 2006/07 for having named his 99th consecutive altered line-up, but none of the critics bothered to check that he'd actually won a stunning percentage of those 99 games.

Obviously everyone knows Benitez rotates more than anyone else? (Ergo: way too much.) It's a known fact, right?

Except, of course, it's not true.

Manchester United won last season's league title with Alex Ferguson having made a total of 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, at an average of 3.11 changes per game. The season before that, Chelsea won the league with Mourinho also having made 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, again (obviously) at an average of 3.11 changes per game.

So how many changes did Benitez make in 2006/07?

You guessed it, 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, at what the eagle-eyed among you will know recognise as an average of 3.11 changes per game.

Ah, but in 2005/06, Benitez must have gone crazy with the rotation? Indeed he did, with an outrageous and outlandish 119 changes, at an average of 3.13 changes per game: a miniscule 0.02 more than the last two title-winning teams.

So why is there this unerring torrent of punditry telling us Benitez rotates so much more than his rivals? As an example, in the pre-season friendly against Shanghai Shenhua last Friday, experts Trevor Francis and Gary McAllister (who can be partially excused on account of being a hugely likeable Liverpool demi-legend, and also for being a fellow member of the bald community) both noted that Benitez rotated too often. So did the game's commentator.

Of course, the above figures don't take into account rotation that occurs in other competitions, in games played between Premiership matches. In that sense, it is indeed true that Benitez changes his team fractionally more than Mourinho and Ferguson, freshening things up for the cups.

And, the Spaniard could argue, with some justification, given the Reds' record in Europe and the FA Cup in that time.

But the fact remains that Benitez has kept his Premier League team selections as consistent as Ferguson and Mourinho. In terms of rotation, there's been nothing to separate them.

Yes, Benitez's line-ups are often difficult to predict. But there is far more consistency to his league selections than he is given credit for. This is proof that rotation has not been what has cost Liverpool the league title.

The fact that Ferguson named an unchanged team in the league four times last season - something Benitez never did - suggests the United man's ability to keep a settled side at least on the odd occasion.

But in those four games United's results were well below their overall season average, and way below the ultra-high average racked up on the nine times he made three changes.

So for Ferguson, three changes were far better than none. Indeed, it's worth pointing out that Liverpool's best points average came when Benitez made four changes from the previous league match: at an average of 2.5 points in those six games, it shows a rate consistent with a final total of 95 points. That doesn't mean he should make four changes every game, just for the sake of it, but it does highlight that for him, making the right changes worked.

So perhaps Benitez's fault is that he rotates his key players more often? Or switches his strikers around more than anyone else? Surely this has to be the case? As Gary McAllister said on Sky, Ferguson keeps a core of his players in the team at all times, something Benítez never did.

Well, the truth is very different.

It's clear that whenever Jamie Carragher, Pepe Reina and Steven Gerrard were fit, they were almost always selected, at least up until the April/May 'ease off'. As his three most indispensable players, they were never rotated, just rested on occasion or absent through injury. Finnan, Alonso, Riise and Kuyt also started the vast majority of games.

Indeed, Gerrard started a whopping 92 per cent of Liverpool's league matches, and was on for a 100 per cent attendance record until Benítez rested him on the 35th, 36th and 37th games of the season, with Athens looming. Pepe Reina also started 92 per cent of the matches.

Neither Manchester United or Liverpool had a player with a 100 per cent league-starts rating during last season, but out of United and Liverpool's squads, Gerrard and Reina came closest, with the Reds' Carragher next in line, with an 89 per cent start rate. United had no one who started more than 87 cent of league games. So it was Benitez who had a more settled core of indispensable players.

Overall, both teams had six 'ultra-key' players who started in the vast majority (76-99 per cent) of league games; Chelsea, by contrast, had only four (injuries to Petr Cech and John Terry lowered this from the expected six).

Then come the fairly indispensable players: those who started 50-75 per cent of matches.

Again Liverpool had six players in this category, but United only had four (Chelsea had six). So, while Chelsea and Manchester United only had ten players who started the majority of league matches, Liverpool had 12. (As an example, centre-backs Agger and Hyypia both started 23 league games, but Carragher was the main man with 34. Agger and Hyypia tended to be rotated, but on four occasions all three started.)

This can be looked at in one of two ways: Ferguson had a slightly smaller core of key players he would always call on; while Benitez had two more 'important' players who featured very heavily.

While Benitez used 26 players in total, Ferguson used 25, so there's little difference there. Even looking at those who were little more than bit-part players, it's virtually identical; both had 10 players who started less than 25 per cent of Premiership games, many of these in the dead rubbers in late April and early May.

As for strikers, Benitez only really rotated between three - Kuyt, Crouch and Bellamy - until the final three games of the season; before then, the fourth striker, Robbie Fowler, started only three times, and only once between the fourth and 35th matches; as such, for the league
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2007/aug/8/NG156624070808-1304.htm

Hopefully this will stop some of the bs about Benitez rotating, i doubt it though :)
 
The issues with Benitez' rotation are that he rotates the players who shouldn't be rotated. When Ferguson rotated (mainly through injuries) it was genererally down the wings, very rarely was the center of the team changed (Ferdinand/Vidic, Scholes/Carrick or Rooney/Saha), this is the spine of the team.

This is what Benitez does that causes problems.
You obviously didn't read the whole article; when fit Reina, Carra-Agger, Gerrard-Alonso (our spine as you put it), as well as Riise, Finnan and Kuyt all played. Like Utd the only positions that were rotated were our wingers and Bellamy or Crouch. All the talk that Benitez rotates more than Fergie or JM did, or even the talkt that he rotates the core of his side is simply not true, like i said in responce to HangTime's post, had we been winning then it wouldn't have got a mention.

As for the rest of your post, all sides get injuries and we had our fair share too and you also have to remember that those stats take into account the last 5-6 games of the season where Rafa was changing near enough whole sides with the CL in mind, had we still had something to play for in the League then im sure we would have ended up making less changes than you.
My view has been that in those 3 seasons Chelsea and Man Utd had a better team than Liverpool.

In fact I guess we could interpret this interesting statistical analysis to say that if Benitez and Fergie are rotating about the same, and his rotations are more effective on average, then perhaps the problem lies in the main basis of the team not being good enough :)
Thats exactly it and had we been winning more often it wouldn't have got a mention.
 
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Good point well made, but if it was an important race then you would want your best chance of winning.

Rafa should have played Torres from the start in both the Portsmouth and Birmingham games and he didn't. Two wins out of those and we would be joint top with Arsenal.

Because we didn't win, he should have played but had we won like we should have done then it wouldn't have been mentioned.

Had Torres played and got injured for a long period then we would have been in more trouble, it was a calculated risk to rest him vs Pompey (he was left out vs Birmingham for tactical reasons) which backfired because we didn't win.

I would have played him in both matches but i can fully understand why he wasn't picked (Birmingham in particular).
 
I think when the team sheet was released a lot of people questioned why Torres wasn't included, it wasn't only after the game that people said Torres should be playing.

The teams we used against Birmingham and Pompey should have been enough to get 3 points, but obviously if our best 11 had been playing we would have had a better chance of getting those wins.

It was questioned because of the reputation we've got of rotating, i was talking generally that talk of rotation is only brought up because of our overall performances.

The OP proves that we play a just as steady side as Utd and Chelsea but there rotating goes unnoticed because they were winning.
 
If Rooney had made a great start to the season scoring a few goals, Fergie wouldn't leave him out of 2 PL games in a row including a very tough one away to Portsmouth to keep him fresh for the end of the season, it simply doesn't make sense.

Leaving him out vs Pompey was a mistake but Rafa's arguement was that he wasn't prepared for the game as he only had a short training session on the Friday morning before the game. As for the Birmingham game, sure we would have had a better chance of winning but Kuyt and Voronin were more than capable of beating them and Torres not playing shouldn't have been the excuse used for why we didn't win.

I honestly believe that those 2 matches were one-offs and on the whole Torres will be one of the first names on the team sheet.

Overall maybe we do rotate just as much as Chelsea and United, the stats say we do at least but they don't take into the account the reasons for rotating btw (suspensions, injuries etc) but sometimes Rafa makes some very strange selection decisions. For example a few times last year Crouch seemed to put in a great performance the then find him on the bench for the next game.
Sure they don't take into account the reasons for the changes but over the course of 2 seasons im sure that the amount of injuries and suspensions would be pretty even and im sure we've had more than our fair share of injuries in that time.

Not sure about these times he's left Crouch out though, it was only towards the end of last season when Crouch was being left out and that was around the same time his form dropped. Last season we could be more or less certain that these players would play if they were fit: Reina, Finnan, Agger, Carra, Riise, Gerrard, Alonso and Kuyt, the only changes were made in the wide areas and the 2nd striker but if we are to believe all the **** in the press we change 9 players per game and that Gerrard only started 5 games last year (when in actual fact he only missed 3 games, all of which in the last few games of the season with nothing to play for).
 
Just a couple of examples last season, Crouch scored in the CL against Bordeaux and then left out against United, he scored against PSV and then was left out against Man City, both times we ended up getting bad results. If a striker scores in a game he should automatically get on the team sheet for the next game imo, unless he's injured/suspended or it's an unimportant Carling Cup game or something.

Fair enough, but scoring and playing well don't always go together; iirc both the Bordeaux and PSV games you mention were non-events in which he may well have scored but i don't recall him playing particuarly well (nor did the side at all).

The point of the OP was that we don't make more changes than Utd or Chelsea and that the bulk of our side (our core/star players) played every game when fit and that it was only the fringe players who were rotated.
What about if 3 (or more!) strikers score in the same game?

lol good point, play them all? I have to say that goals are not the be all and end all (on the whole) to Benitez, he looks more at who is the best prepared and suited to each game (including form/goals though).
 
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The problem for Liverpool is that I don't think Benitez has a clue what his strongest team is.

lol didn't you notice the part of the article where it mentioned that he kept just as many regulars in his side as Utd (and more than Chelsea), going by that we could say Fergie doesn't know his either.

Is there a single best 11 for every match though? For example today our best 11 would have had Alonso alongside Gerrard rather than Mascherano but had we played Chelsea, Utd etc then it would have been Masherano alonside Gerrard.

If you're talking about the best 11 for a match against a top side then im sure this would be the side that Rafa would choose.

Reina
Finnan Carra Agger Arbeloa
Pennant Gerrard Mascherano Babel
Torres Kuyt

But like i said, Mascherano isn't needed against the smaller sides and Alonso's better passing would be more useful.
 
I don't think he thinks theres such thing as a "strongest team" for every game. He'll pick a different "strongest team" depending on the opposition/occasion/form etc.

edit: baz said pretty much the same thing.

exactly but the only position i would put up for debate regarding who's best suited would be Alonso or Mascherano (maybe Arbeloa or Riise too), the rest of the side would get in our best 11 regardless of the game.

E.g. A home game vs a big side he may go for Alonso and Gerrard but away from home he may play Mascherano instead, other than that it would stay pretty much the same.
 
I refuse to accept that article though, statistically speaking there might be nothing between the sides but there is so much more to it than that. Never did Fergie change a team because of the opposition, only because of injuries or other mitigating circumstances. Last season our best XI without question was;

VdS
Neville Vidic Rio Evra
Ronaldo Carrick Scholes Giggs
Saha Rooney

That would be the team that would be picked every game in an ideal world, doesn't matter if you're playing AC Milan or Farsley Celtic. I don't believe that there is such a thing as a best XI for different matches, the best teams are built on two things, ability and consistency. You should always play to your own strengths, not try and fit your game round the opposition. That's why I'm concerned about the arrival of Hargreaves, yes it's nice to have a player of his ability but it brings questions about what our best CM partnership actually is.
You can refuse to accept the article if you want but the fact remains that Utd made just as many changes to there side as we did and im sure that over the course of the season we had just as many injuries/suspensions as you did (in fact i wouldn't be suprised if we had quite a few more).

I also find it hard to believe that Fergie kept the same side providing they were fit and not suspended (see below) and were never rotated/rested.

Also to say that Utd had 1 best side and providing they were fit etc they played i find very strange when Heinze was selected in the FA cup final ahead of Evra but on many other occasions Evra played ahead of Heinze (while both were fit). Other than Evra-Heinze Utd didn't have any other genuine competition for places in there squad, who could have replaced Giggs and Scholes? O'Shea and Park? And didn't Utd reguarly change there entire system in Europe? 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3 with Rooney out wide?

I would be interested to know what Utd's best side is this year now that they have real competition in CM, on the wings and up front and i would be shocked if the best side to play Derby at home is the same as Barca away, i mean why would you play Hargreaves vs Derby ahead of Scholes/Carrick or another winger/forward for example.

And finally im shocked that you're concerned about Hargreaves' arrival, he's the sort of player that may have made a difference in the CL for you as you had no answers to Kaka but saying that Utd only have 1 best side so he may well have never got in the side :rolleyes:
If that was the case then Mascherano, Sissoko etc.. wouldn't have had so many games. I don't think there is any doubt that Liverpool do infact rotate a lot, the issue they have is they do it when it's unneccesary.
Of course we rotate but no more than Utd or Chelsea. Mascherano and Sissoko got games when Pennant was left out (Gerrard moved out wide) or when we played 3 in the middle (Utd done similar things when they changed system and Rooney got moved out wide) but our core players always played so im not sure why changing Crouch for Bellamy or Mascherano for Pennant is unneccesary depending on the game.

Also Mascherano only started 8 games and Sissoko 14 and other than those 2, Hyypia play 20-odd games due to injuries to Agger and Carra (also got a few apps towards the end of the season when we rested players).

Rotation is just used as a stick to beat us with when we don't win, people still go on about our zonal marking but if people actually look at the stats we have an amazing record at defending set-plays.
 
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Isnt it the fact that he almost NEVER plays the same side two games in a row, where as United and chelsea did?
Yep that is true but according to that artcile, on the 4 occasions Utd done this there form droppped.
They made the same amount of changes, but they were large changes, in fewer games.
Not sure why you think that, Utd only kept the same side 4 times and had the same amount of regulars as we did.
Isnt the problem that Benitez just seems to make changes for changes sake?

Yea thats it :rolleyes:
 
We lost our entire defense, our entire midfield bar Ronaldo and our strikeforce last season. I've never known us get so many players injured. At some point last season ALL 11 first-team players missed a game injured.
Liverpool lost every player except Kuyt to injury last year and he missed a couple of matches at the start of the seasons because he wasn't signed (though Gerrard didn't miss a league game, just a CL game).
That's my point. Rafa rotated probably the finest English CM in a couple of decades onto the right-wing to fit with rotation policies. It's the players through the middle that are the most important and Gerrard is a phenomenal player.
Firstly Gerrard didn't play on the right just for the sake of playing Mascherano or Sissoko, but because he felt that in those games we needed more solidity in the middle (and he still played most of last season in the middle).

Also didn't Fergie play Rooney on the left (one of the finest forwards in the world) and Giggs through the middle (one of the best wingers of his generation) just for the sake of rotating?
I don't know whether to believe that, are you counting a change on the bench or something?
Already this season we've started the same team numerous times.
Its games in a row not the same 11 being played 1 week and then playing 6 games later.
 
The answer to this is simple.

When you 'rotate' players and win - you are seen as 'resting' them (for the bigger games).

When you 'rotate' players and lose - you are seen as 'tinkering'.

If Liverpool had won the Premiership once or twice under Rafa, then people would be praising his rotation policy. Ultimately his rotation policy has worked very well for them in the Champions League, and they've been one of the few teams who have had a freshness and spark about them in the latter stages of the competition.

The problem is, that come the end of the league season, having a freshness and spark isn't enough if you've already dropped 20 points behind your rivals.
Thats exactly it, we weren't out of the title race because of rotating but because the players that were being rotated weren't good enough, Rafa's carried on with his 'rotating' this season (though with better players) and if/when we win our game in hand we will go 2nd and before Utd or Chelsea blame injuries on there changes this season we've had more and our best players too (Gerrard, Carra, Agger and Alonso have had broken bones).
 
Well, its true, there is no other explanation for leaving a £23 million pound striker on the bench for any league game when you know full well you are going to be sacked if you dont come close to winning the league this year.

And it is as simple as that, he will be gone if he doesnt close that gap and as yet he's shown no sign of doing that.

Ive seen your predictions over the last few years and they're generally wrong so im not too worried, Benitez won't be sacked this season regardless of how we do this season.

Leaving him out against Pompey was a mistake but not the Birmingham game. Benitez (or any other manager) doesn't believe a player can play every game in a season without a break (if you want them to stay at a certain level) and the Birmingham game was an ideal chance to leave him out as it was a game that any 11 of our squad should have won.
 
...............

Off the top of my head you also said consistently throughout last season (even with a few games to go when the title was more or less over) that Chelsea would win the league and that Chelsea would walk the league this year. And not many of those correct predictions you are supposed to have are in the last few years.

And if you're talking about your great source for Liverpool's transfers then you couldn't really blame me for that, at the very least you could have found somewhere that got the years players were signed in correct (especially as they had only been signed a few months previous), even if the transfer values were wrong. To be fair though, it was proberly harder to find a source that wrong than one that was right so you should take something from that.
I don't expect us to win the league this year but I do expect us to finish a lot closer to the league winner than we have done in previous years. If that doesn't happen I expect Benitez to go because he's had money to spend and can have no more excuses.
If we were to finish 20 odd points off the pace then you could argue that he deserves to go but i doubt he will, we traditionally give managers time and the CL win (and last years final) would have got him more time. I fully expect us to finish within single figures of the winners this year (who knows we could win it) and thats going to be more than enough.
 
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I tell you what, i've still got some of my "Liverpool FC, League winners 06/07" scarves in stock, ill do you one for half price as a way of smoothing the waters between us.
:(

lol have you still got all those Chelsea one's too? I presume you stocked up on those too as you seemed very confident they would win the league last year ;)
I hope rafa reads this to be honest. he needs some support that it's a wise decision to rest torres against the likes of birmingham and co so he he can be ultra fit for the cups. at last we now have conclusive proof that he is right and it's got numbers and averages and everything.

Carry on Rafa!
Nobody said his decisions were right or wrong, just that it seems only his rotating gets noticed.
 
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I'd go with Pennant or Yossi over Babel and Crouch over Kuyt.

What has Kuyt ever done to offend you Pigeon? ;)

Not sure what Aurellio has done to warrant a place in our 'best 11', he was terrible early on last year but had a 2 month spell where he was excellent prior to his injury though during that time he was mainly playing LM not LB.

Ive already said that i don't think there is a 'best 11' for every match but there would only be the odd change between different 11's for different matches:

Reina
Finnan Carra Agger Arbeloa
Pennant Gerrard ? Babel
Kuyt Torres

The only decision that would need to be made would be Alonso or Mascherano but as a general rule it would be Mascherano for the bigger sides or harder away games and Alonso for the rest.

Don't worry about it. Very few of the Liverpool supporters on here care about your posts.
Dan's alright, just got few too many bad jokes ;)
 
Sorry, I'm not that way inclined. If you're looking for the touchy feely type BaZ might be your answer :p

Exactly! He works hard and that's it. I want goals god damn it, goals! A striker that doesn't score is like a prom date that doesn't put out. Utterly useless!

lol

Fair enough he doesn't score like he did in Holland but he hasn't been playing right up top for us and its not as if he's been put under pressure by any other striker; Voronin is just a more capable replacement for Fowler and Crouch's goals started to dry up half-way through last season.
who's got the bad jokes now :p ;)
i laughed at his :p
 
and now i am involved in iti can't give exact dates but i seem to remember fergie and wenger have in the past been criticised because of their rotation policies. it's just what happens when you make a couple of bad choices. a few weeks down the line you bring a player in who has a blinder and you're a genius again.

If only, this has been going on for the last 2 seasons and so far this season its becoming a joke.

You're right though its all down to the result, if you win it won't get a mention but if you lose it was because you changed the side.
 
That's the biggest problem I have with him. Someone should tell him to get in the box and at least have an attempt on goal now and then. All he does by dropping deep is slow down our attacks and get in the way of Gerrard and our other midfielders. He's not Dennis Bergkamp so if he wants to keep dropping back he should at least have the decency to drop back all the way to the bench. At the moment I see him as a really crap midfielder or a pointless striker.

The way (position: dropping deep etc) he's playing isn't down to him but the tactics we play and his goals to starts (or apps in general) ratio was only slightly worse than Crouch's last season (and Crouch played right up top when he played).

His work-rate and the amount of chances he creates through that work more than make up for the odd goal Crouch may score, for me anyway.
 
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