Rafa's Rotating - Myth or Not?

Don
Joined
9 Jun 2004
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This has been a much talked about topic for the last few years now and im watching 'you're on sky sports' and some of the stuff Graham Stuart is saying is just simply stupid.

There are 2 points i just wanted to make regarding this talk of rotation, 1 of which being pretty crucial and i would imagine will suprise a few people.

1. Firstly people don't seem understand the reason why Benitez does rotate (Andy Gray in particular); you keep hearing people going on about Benitez thinks players are tired and can't play 3 games in a week when in actual fact Benitez has came out and said that players can play 20-30 games in a row but if you want them to be fresh enough to compete at the business end of the season when trophies are up for stake then you must give them rests during the season. Now thats a matter of opinion but if you look at Liverpool's record towards the back end of the season, particuarly in the cups and there performance over the Christmas period where the fixtures are all piled up, Liverpool have had that freshness and our results have shown that.

2. Secondly i keep hearing people (press and on here) that the reason why Chelsea and Utd have had more success in the League is because Fergie and JM kept a stable side and Benitez kept making changes, well thats simply just bs. I don't want to take too much credit for this because i was a bit suprised at this when i read it but there was an article a while back that brought up a few stats that prove this talk that Rafa rotates more is bs:
Paul Tomkins said:
Rather than rotation being the rot that eats away at the core of Liverpool’s title challenges, it’s the criticism that’s rotten. You don't believe me? Read on ...

In his new role as Setanta Sports' analyst, ex-Red Steve McManaman stated a few weeks ago that Benítez needed to rotate less to win the league. He was far from alone in expressing that belief; I don't mean to single him out, but he was just the first to mention it this pre-season.

I can barely turn on a sports channel or read a newspaper opinion piece without hearing it trotted out like some brainwashing mantra. No wonder people believe it. I even stopped reading the Premier League previews, and just searched for the word 'rotation' within. A couple of times it didn't appear in a piece; upon further investigation, another phrase had been chosen to explain Benitez's 'folly'. Same accusations, different wording.

It's become received wisdom, passed on in acts of laziness that pass as analysis.

Rotation is by its nature difficult to assess, as often you cannot say for sure if players were rested, suspended, injured, or left out for essential tactical purposes. Only the management know why team selections are made, as well as how the players were looking in training in the build up. Long gone are the days of settled sides and 14 players featuring all season long. For Benitez, any team change is labelled 'rotation'.

And of course, rotation is only mentioned after defeats, never after long runs of victories. Benitez was criticised during 2006/07 for having named his 99th consecutive altered line-up, but none of the critics bothered to check that he'd actually won a stunning percentage of those 99 games.

Obviously everyone knows Benitez rotates more than anyone else? (Ergo: way too much.) It's a known fact, right?

Except, of course, it's not true.

Manchester United won last season's league title with Alex Ferguson having made a total of 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, at an average of 3.11 changes per game. The season before that, Chelsea won the league with Mourinho also having made 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, again (obviously) at an average of 3.11 changes per game.

So how many changes did Benitez make in 2006/07?

You guessed it, 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, at what the eagle-eyed among you will know recognise as an average of 3.11 changes per game.

Ah, but in 2005/06, Benitez must have gone crazy with the rotation? Indeed he did, with an outrageous and outlandish 119 changes, at an average of 3.13 changes per game: a miniscule 0.02 more than the last two title-winning teams.

So why is there this unerring torrent of punditry telling us Benitez rotates so much more than his rivals? As an example, in the pre-season friendly against Shanghai Shenhua last Friday, experts Trevor Francis and Gary McAllister (who can be partially excused on account of being a hugely likeable Liverpool demi-legend, and also for being a fellow member of the bald community) both noted that Benitez rotated too often. So did the game's commentator.

Of course, the above figures don't take into account rotation that occurs in other competitions, in games played between Premiership matches. In that sense, it is indeed true that Benitez changes his team fractionally more than Mourinho and Ferguson, freshening things up for the cups.

And, the Spaniard could argue, with some justification, given the Reds' record in Europe and the FA Cup in that time.

But the fact remains that Benitez has kept his Premier League team selections as consistent as Ferguson and Mourinho. In terms of rotation, there's been nothing to separate them.

Yes, Benitez's line-ups are often difficult to predict. But there is far more consistency to his league selections than he is given credit for. This is proof that rotation has not been what has cost Liverpool the league title.

The fact that Ferguson named an unchanged team in the league four times last season - something Benitez never did - suggests the United man's ability to keep a settled side at least on the odd occasion.

But in those four games United's results were well below their overall season average, and way below the ultra-high average racked up on the nine times he made three changes.

So for Ferguson, three changes were far better than none. Indeed, it's worth pointing out that Liverpool's best points average came when Benitez made four changes from the previous league match: at an average of 2.5 points in those six games, it shows a rate consistent with a final total of 95 points. That doesn't mean he should make four changes every game, just for the sake of it, but it does highlight that for him, making the right changes worked.

So perhaps Benitez's fault is that he rotates his key players more often? Or switches his strikers around more than anyone else? Surely this has to be the case? As Gary McAllister said on Sky, Ferguson keeps a core of his players in the team at all times, something Benítez never did.

Well, the truth is very different.

It's clear that whenever Jamie Carragher, Pepe Reina and Steven Gerrard were fit, they were almost always selected, at least up until the April/May 'ease off'. As his three most indispensable players, they were never rotated, just rested on occasion or absent through injury. Finnan, Alonso, Riise and Kuyt also started the vast majority of games.

Indeed, Gerrard started a whopping 92 per cent of Liverpool's league matches, and was on for a 100 per cent attendance record until Benítez rested him on the 35th, 36th and 37th games of the season, with Athens looming. Pepe Reina also started 92 per cent of the matches.

Neither Manchester United or Liverpool had a player with a 100 per cent league-starts rating during last season, but out of United and Liverpool's squads, Gerrard and Reina came closest, with the Reds' Carragher next in line, with an 89 per cent start rate. United had no one who started more than 87 cent of league games. So it was Benitez who had a more settled core of indispensable players.

Overall, both teams had six 'ultra-key' players who started in the vast majority (76-99 per cent) of league games; Chelsea, by contrast, had only four (injuries to Petr Cech and John Terry lowered this from the expected six).

Then come the fairly indispensable players: those who started 50-75 per cent of matches.

Again Liverpool had six players in this category, but United only had four (Chelsea had six). So, while Chelsea and Manchester United only had ten players who started the majority of league matches, Liverpool had 12. (As an example, centre-backs Agger and Hyypia both started 23 league games, but Carragher was the main man with 34. Agger and Hyypia tended to be rotated, but on four occasions all three started.)

This can be looked at in one of two ways: Ferguson had a slightly smaller core of key players he would always call on; while Benitez had two more 'important' players who featured very heavily.

While Benitez used 26 players in total, Ferguson used 25, so there's little difference there. Even looking at those who were little more than bit-part players, it's virtually identical; both had 10 players who started less than 25 per cent of Premiership games, many of these in the dead rubbers in late April and early May.

As for strikers, Benitez only really rotated between three - Kuyt, Crouch and Bellamy - until the final three games of the season; before then, the fourth striker, Robbie Fowler, started only three times, and only once between the fourth and 35th matches; as such, for the league
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2007/aug/8/NG156624070808-1304.htm

Hopefully this will stop some of the bs about Benitez rotating, i doubt it though :)
 
In regards to Man Utd rotating last year, I just don't see it.

Vidic did his collarbone, Silvestre did his shoulder, Saha did... something, Van Der Sar broke his nose, Neville did his leg, Park did his ligaments, Scholes was banned twice.

A large number of rotation were these players going out, then back in. If you look at Man Utd, we very rarely change a winning side. The side Man Utd played with today is the same as the last one. The one before that had one change (Tevez didn't start).

The issues with Benitez' rotation are that he rotates the players who shouldn't be rotated. When Ferguson rotated (mainly through injuries) it was genererally down the wings, very rarely was the center of the team changed (Ferdinand/Vidic, Scholes/Carrick or Rooney/Saha), this is the spine of the team.

This is what Benitez does that causes problems.
 
2. Secondly i keep hearing people (press and on here) that the reason why Chelsea and Utd have had more success in the League is because Fergie and JM kept a stable side and Benitez kept making changes

My view has been that in those 3 seasons Chelsea and Man Utd had a better team than Liverpool.

In fact I guess we could interpret this interesting statistical analysis to say that if Benitez and Fergie are rotating about the same, and his rotations are more effective on average, then perhaps the problem lies in the main basis of the team not being good enough :)
 
The issues with Benitez' rotation are that he rotates the players who shouldn't be rotated. When Ferguson rotated (mainly through injuries) it was genererally down the wings, very rarely was the center of the team changed (Ferdinand/Vidic, Scholes/Carrick or Rooney/Saha), this is the spine of the team.

This is what Benitez does that causes problems.
You obviously didn't read the whole article; when fit Reina, Carra-Agger, Gerrard-Alonso (our spine as you put it), as well as Riise, Finnan and Kuyt all played. Like Utd the only positions that were rotated were our wingers and Bellamy or Crouch. All the talk that Benitez rotates more than Fergie or JM did, or even the talkt that he rotates the core of his side is simply not true, like i said in responce to HangTime's post, had we been winning then it wouldn't have got a mention.

As for the rest of your post, all sides get injuries and we had our fair share too and you also have to remember that those stats take into account the last 5-6 games of the season where Rafa was changing near enough whole sides with the CL in mind, had we still had something to play for in the League then im sure we would have ended up making less changes than you.
My view has been that in those 3 seasons Chelsea and Man Utd had a better team than Liverpool.

In fact I guess we could interpret this interesting statistical analysis to say that if Benitez and Fergie are rotating about the same, and his rotations are more effective on average, then perhaps the problem lies in the main basis of the team not being good enough :)
Thats exactly it and had we been winning more often it wouldn't have got a mention.
 
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Rotation is just something the media latch on to. It's their latest buzz word. It used to be blaming wing-backs for goals being leaked.

They have latched on to rafa for doing it because he didn't play Torres in two games where he blatantly should have.

It's like me buying a Ferarri and turning up to a race meeting with my golf.
 
^the thing is, would you really want to risk getting your Ferrari scratched if you felt that the opposition for that particular race couldn't live with your Golf anyway?
 
Strikers need time to bed in and get sharpness, you cant do this when you are constantly being chopped and changed, plus you and your team mates cant get on the same wavelengths this way imo.

Pick your best 11 and stick with it, and only change things when players are tired, todays super pro can play 60 games a season, the only players that we should rotate are Benny,Babel & Penannt.Granted we have a lot of quality players, but you need to stick to the best 11 to have any chance of competing for the league.
 
^the thing is, would you really want to risk getting your Ferrari scratched if you felt that the opposition for that particular race couldn't live with your Golf anyway?

Good point well made, but if it was an important race then you would want your best chance of winning.

Rafa should have played Torres from the start in both the Portsmouth and Birmingham games and he didn't. Two wins out of those and we would be joint top with Arsenal.
 
Good point well made, but if it was an important race then you would want your best chance of winning.

Rafa should have played Torres from the start in both the Portsmouth and Birmingham games and he didn't. Two wins out of those and we would be joint top with Arsenal.

Because we didn't win, he should have played but had we won like we should have done then it wouldn't have been mentioned.

Had Torres played and got injured for a long period then we would have been in more trouble, it was a calculated risk to rest him vs Pompey (he was left out vs Birmingham for tactical reasons) which backfired because we didn't win.

I would have played him in both matches but i can fully understand why he wasn't picked (Birmingham in particular).
 
Because we didn't win, he should have played but had we won like we should have done then it wouldn't have been mentioned.

I think when the team sheet was released a lot of people questioned why Torres wasn't included, it wasn't only after the game that people said Torres should be playing.

The teams we used against Birmingham and Pompey should have been enough to get 3 points, but obviously if our best 11 had been playing we would have had a better chance of getting those wins.
 
I think when the team sheet was released a lot of people questioned why Torres wasn't included, it wasn't only after the game that people said Torres should be playing.

The teams we used against Birmingham and Pompey should have been enough to get 3 points, but obviously if our best 11 had been playing we would have had a better chance of getting those wins.

It was questioned because of the reputation we've got of rotating, i was talking generally that talk of rotation is only brought up because of our overall performances.

The OP proves that we play a just as steady side as Utd and Chelsea but there rotating goes unnoticed because they were winning.
 
Rafa should have played Torres from the start in both the Portsmouth and Birmingham games and he didn't. Two wins out of those and we would be joint top with Arsenal.

Yeah, but by that logic I could turn round and say if Arsene had played Almunia instead of Lemon in goal maybe Arsenal wouldn't have drawn with Blackburn and so would would be clear at the top with a 100% record.

I'm not a fan of statements like "if we had done this then we'd be top of the league". I've seen if before with Liverpool saying "if we hadn't had such a bad start we'd have won the league!!"....."we dropped pts vs the big teams, had we won all those we'd have pipped MU to the title!!"...... yeah, and if Sunderland had won every game 10-0 they'd have won the league with 114pts

There's no guarentee that Liverpool woudn't have lost those games had Torres been playing.
 
It was questioned because of the reputation we've got of rotating, i was talking generally that talk of rotation is only brought up because of our overall performances.

The OP proves that we play a just as steady side as Utd and Chelsea but there rotating goes unnoticed because they were winning.

If Rooney had made a great start to the season scoring a few goals, Fergie wouldn't leave him out of 2 PL games in a row including a very tough one away to Portsmouth to keep him fresh for the end of the season, it simply doesn't make sense.

Overall maybe we do rotate just as much as Chelsea and United, the stats say we do at least but they don't take into the account the reasons for rotating btw (suspensions, injuries etc) but sometimes Rafa makes some very strange selection decisions. For example a few times last year Crouch seemed to put in a great performance the then find him on the bench for the next game.
 
Yeah, but by that logic I could turn round and say if Arsene had played Almunia instead of Lemon in goal maybe Arsenal wouldn't have drawn with Blackburn and so would would be clear at the top with a 100% record.

I'm not a fan of statements like "if we had done this then we'd be top of the league". I've seen if before with Liverpool saying "if we hadn't had such a bad start we'd have won the league!!"....."we dropped pts vs the big teams, had we won all those we'd have pipped MU to the title!!"...... yeah, and if Sunderland had won every game 10-0 they'd have won the league with 114pts

There's no guarentee that Liverpool woudn't have lost those games had Torres been playing.

Sure, there is no guarantee. But he is our best striker by far and if he had played I bet you we would have won those games fo sho.!
 
Stats don't lie - it all points to Liverpool just having weaker players than United and Chelsea (which is of course true). Liverpool didn't have a Drogba or Rooney like Chelsea and United which in Torres they might have this season. Looking at their squad now they still lack decent wide men, Chelsea have Phillips, Malouda and Cole, United have Ronaldo and Giggs (Nani?) whilst Liverpool have Babel (a rough diamond like Nani), Pennant (who isn't a patch on Ronaldo or Cole) and Benayoun (who is like Cole but worse). Sure they have a top class central midfield but Alonso, Sissoko and Gerrard are still massively comparable to Lampard, Essien and Makalele or Scholes, Carrick and Hargreaves and not necessarily better.

Benitez is clearly doing something right and with turmoil at Chelsea and United seemingly impotent Liverpool could take it all the way this season (if Arsenal don't stay awesome).
 
If Rooney had made a great start to the season scoring a few goals, Fergie wouldn't leave him out of 2 PL games in a row including a very tough one away to Portsmouth to keep him fresh for the end of the season, it simply doesn't make sense.

Leaving him out vs Pompey was a mistake but Rafa's arguement was that he wasn't prepared for the game as he only had a short training session on the Friday morning before the game. As for the Birmingham game, sure we would have had a better chance of winning but Kuyt and Voronin were more than capable of beating them and Torres not playing shouldn't have been the excuse used for why we didn't win.

I honestly believe that those 2 matches were one-offs and on the whole Torres will be one of the first names on the team sheet.

Overall maybe we do rotate just as much as Chelsea and United, the stats say we do at least but they don't take into the account the reasons for rotating btw (suspensions, injuries etc) but sometimes Rafa makes some very strange selection decisions. For example a few times last year Crouch seemed to put in a great performance the then find him on the bench for the next game.
Sure they don't take into account the reasons for the changes but over the course of 2 seasons im sure that the amount of injuries and suspensions would be pretty even and im sure we've had more than our fair share of injuries in that time.

Not sure about these times he's left Crouch out though, it was only towards the end of last season when Crouch was being left out and that was around the same time his form dropped. Last season we could be more or less certain that these players would play if they were fit: Reina, Finnan, Agger, Carra, Riise, Gerrard, Alonso and Kuyt, the only changes were made in the wide areas and the 2nd striker but if we are to believe all the **** in the press we change 9 players per game and that Gerrard only started 5 games last year (when in actual fact he only missed 3 games, all of which in the last few games of the season with nothing to play for).
 
I honestly believe that those 2 matches were one-offs and on the whole Torres will be one of the first names on the team sheet.

I hope so and I thought Torres would be a permenant fixture on the team sheet in the PL this season until I saw the lineups against Pompey/Birmingham, as you say hopefully they are just one-offs.

Not sure about these times he's left Crouch out though, it was only towards the end of last season when Crouch was being left out and that was around the same time his form dropped. Last season we could be more or less certain that these players would play if they were fit: Reina, Finnan, Agger, Carra, Riise, Gerrard, Alonso and Kuyt, the only changes were made in the wide areas and the 2nd striker but if we are to believe all the **** in the press we change 9 players per game and that Gerrard only started 5 games last year (when in actual fact he only missed 3 games, all of which in the last few games of the season with nothing to play for).

Just a couple of examples last season, Crouch scored in the CL against Bordeaux and then left out against United, he scored against PSV and then was left out against Man City, both times we ended up getting bad results. If a striker scores in a game he should automatically get on the team sheet for the next game imo, unless he's injured/suspended or it's an unimportant Carling Cup game or something.
 
If a striker scores in a game he should automatically get on the team sheet for the next game imo, unless he's injured/suspended or it's an unimportant Carling Cup game or something.

What about if 3 (or more!) strikers score in the same game?
 
Just a couple of examples last season, Crouch scored in the CL against Bordeaux and then left out against United, he scored against PSV and then was left out against Man City, both times we ended up getting bad results. If a striker scores in a game he should automatically get on the team sheet for the next game imo, unless he's injured/suspended or it's an unimportant Carling Cup game or something.

Fair enough, but scoring and playing well don't always go together; iirc both the Bordeaux and PSV games you mention were non-events in which he may well have scored but i don't recall him playing particuarly well (nor did the side at all).

The point of the OP was that we don't make more changes than Utd or Chelsea and that the bulk of our side (our core/star players) played every game when fit and that it was only the fringe players who were rotated.
What about if 3 (or more!) strikers score in the same game?

lol good point, play them all? I have to say that goals are not the be all and end all (on the whole) to Benitez, he looks more at who is the best prepared and suited to each game (including form/goals though).
 
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