Recruiters eh

[dry]

Got contacted on Linkedin about a job I'd seen advertised but dismissed because of commute distance and not being overly interested in the niche it's in

Entertain recruiter's request and have a phone interview, doesn't go too great but recruiter says they want face-to-face interview

Recruiter asks if I'm available on X day, I say sure, after 5:30. Get a short reply back "You'll need to take a half day, say you have a dentist or doctors appt". I politely withdraw my interest in the role- I haven't got PTO to take for something I'm not 100% interested in

Recruiter pesters me, "It's standard practise to have an interview during the working day and ridiculous you can't do it until 5:30". I stay dead silent.

Recruiter gets back to me next day "I've managed to squeeze you in for 5pm, more details to follow"

1. I'm tempted to wait until the day and then say I can't make it. Thoughts?
2, I'm tempted to forward suggestion of lying to my current company to potential employer for them to consider. Thoughts?
3. He's called me the short version of my name throughout (e.g. Ben instead of Benjamin) but I've never referred to myself as 'Ben' which grinds my gears. Am I nit picking?

 

[goldy6660]

I'd definitely be tempted to bin it off. If you were really wanting the role you'd probably want to book sometime off, it'd be by your own accord of course.

Sounds like he's being pushy.

 

[Zefan]

Is this an external recruiter/agency or the HR of the organisation themselves? Either way, they're being pushy, yes. Recruiting is a competitive business, I expect this kind of behaviour although obviously they vary widely. There's no need to lie, either reiterate your last message that you're no longer interested or simply leave that one as your final point on the matter. If they continue to waste their time contacting you with no replies that's their business.

 

[dowie]

Recruiter pesters me, "It's standard practise to have an interview during the working day and ridiculous you can't do it until 5:30". I stay dead silent.

What do you mean by "I stay dead silent" - are you referring to a phone call here or you mean you've just not replied to his e-mails and then this happens:

Recruiter gets back to me next day "I've managed to squeeze you in for 5pm, more details to follow"

1. I'm tempted to wait until the day and then say I can't make it. Thoughts?

Why? What do you gain from it other than being petty to the recruiter?

2, I'm tempted to forward suggestion of lying to my current company to potential employer for them to consider. Thoughts?

Again why?

Recruiter suggests you fake a doctors appointment to get an interview in... so what? Half the candidates they're interviewing during work hours have faked doctors appointments to be there.

3. He's called me the short version of my name throughout (e.g. Ben instead of Benjamin) but I've never referred to myself as 'Ben' which grinds my gears. Am I nit picking?

As far as I can tell you have nothing to gain from trying to be petty with your above suggestions. If he calls you "Ben" on the phone and you don't like it then just interrupt him and tell him not to.

As for his pestering - again, he's a salesperson, pestering you is his job. The easiest thing to do to deal with his BS is just to have thrown some BS straight back - he say's "pull a sickie/go to the doctors", you just say:

"I get that, I would do normally, 5pm on X day is definitely no good to me, I've got a webinar with one of our biggest clients then and the Q&A will run over, I reckon I could get out at 5:20 and make it over there in 10 mins - why can't they do 5:30?"

If this employer really wants to meet specifically you then they'll make it happen - if it is just some recruiter trying to line up you as one of many potential candidates that the employer hasn't even heard of yet then pfft... if he can't sort it outside of work hours and you don't want to go during work hours then who cares, it was a crapshoot anyway.

 

[dry]

Thanks, will probably bin it off.

Agree there's no point being petty and I understand most people go to 'doctors appointments' for interviews etc

He's a recruiter working for an agency- not directly employed by the company with the vacancy.

If there's one thing I've learnt it's that I don't want to work in recruitment or sales, lying and being overly pushy just doesn't sit right with me

 

[Energize]

Recruiter suggests you fake a doctors appointment to get an interview in... so what? Half the candidates they're interviewing during work hours have faked doctors appointments to be there.

As for his pestering - again, he's a salesperson, pestering you is his job.

Shock horror as some people have integrity and aren't willing to commit gross misconduct by faking a medical appointment to get PTO.

There's pestering and then there is being rude and obnoxious and this recruiter falls into the latter. Telling candidates they are being ridiculous because they aren't going to bend over and do as they're told like the other candidates serves no purpose other than to annoy the candidate. Red flags all over the place if it's this bad at the recruitmentment stage.

 

[dowie]

@OP it is worthwhile attending interviews regardless - I'd not turn it down completely - I'd just hold firm on the time, just tell the guy you can do 5:30 pm... if they can't arrange it for then then meh... but it generally is worthwhile attending interviews every so often even if you're not fussed about moving. You get an idea about current market rates, how much you're worth, how easily you could perhaps move in the near future etc.. all useful things to know when it comes to your own career progress where you are currently and discussions with your current company, annual pay reviews etc..

Red flags all over the place if it's this bad at the recruitmentment stage.

Not really, it's got no indication of anything with regards to the job itself, it is just a recruiter being a recruiter... if you're unaware that lots of people would have to lie to get away from work in the middle of the day at short notice either because they are unable to take a holiday at short notice or don't want to take a holiday to be away for an hour or don't have any holidays left to book etc.. etc.. then you're being a bit naive.

Sometimes people take longer lunch breaks, sometimes people work from home... sometimes you could perhaps combine a doctors appointment or dental hygienist visit with an interview (for extra cover) - doesn't have to be gross misconduct... but the gist of it is from the recruiters pov is that most candidates will make it happen.

Getting anal about it and being like "omg some people have told a lie" is rather silly.

From the OP's pov of course he's happy enough where he is that he doesn't care enough about the possibility of a job he knows little about yet that... well why bother going to the extra effort - they can meet him after work or he can just take a pass...

 

[Energize]

The fact that lots of other people lie is irrelevant, it's totally impertinent to expect other people to commit gross misconduct and risk being fired for you when you can't even be bothered to schedule an interview for 5.30 ffs.

There's nothing wrong with taking a longer lunch break, that's not misconduct, but it's still childish to start calling candidates ridiculous for not catering to your whims in any event

Any company that is professional understands that getting time off at short notice can be difficult and will accommodate accordingly, the fact they don't appreciate this is a red flag. Remember the OP didn't approach them, they approached him and need to behave appropriately.

 

[dowie]

It isn’t irrelevant it’s literally why people are unlikely to give a **** if he raises it with the recruitment company or client.

You’re conflating the recruiter and the company itself, the recruiter suggesting something that plenty of candidates do has little to do with the job. This “it’s a red flag” nonsense is unfounded.

As for taking a longer lunch break - I have that as an example, however not everyone is in the position to do so without explanation - if someone does give an explanation then they’ll probably lie or be evasive, it’s much more risky in most cases to openly state that you’re going for an interview elsewhere than to lie about going for an interview.

The gross misconduct thing is overblown here and you’re being rather silly to keep on putting emphasis on it, the recruiter and the recruiters company likely don’t care and in plenty of industries the client company knows full well that candidates they see during business hours are there without their employers knowing.

I mean if you’re taking this objection then I guess your mind might be blown when it comes to people seeking to actively break non-compete agreements or negotiation entire teams moving - do you think either the recruitment company or the client company care that the action being discussed is “gross misconduct” or potentially breaking various agreements? It still happens, these things get negotiated payments sometimes get made to buy people out of their contracts etc... you won’t get a recruiter saying “oh you can’t technically work for a competitior for 6 months, I’ll respect that” you’ll get the recruiter and the competitor making sure to keep it quiet and plan how to pull off the move and you get a solicitor to discuss ways around your contract.

 

[Energize]

The recruiter represents the company, the way they behave reflects the practices of the company as a whole, and seriously there is a time when you just need to grow a pair and not be at the beck and call of every time wasting recruiter on linkedin.

I have seen people fired for taking paid time off to go to job interviews, only an idiot would commit gross misconduct and have that on their references for some speculative job interview lol.

If you honestly don't understand the difference between a contractual matter like a non-compete agreement and a criminal matter like fraud then you shouldn't be giving any sort of advice.

 

[dowie]

The recruiter represents the company, the way they behave reflects the practices of the company as a whole,

No it doesn't, unless an internal recruiter the recruiter is generally an employee of the recruitment company - the recruitment company is contracted by the client company to recruit people for a role they have.

Stating that the behaviour of the recruiter is a "red flag" with regards to this role is just unfounded.

and seriously there is a time when you just need to grow a pair and not be at the beck and call of every time wasting recruiter on linkedin.

Well try reading what I'm actually arguing then! Where did I say that he should be? Re-read my posts, you've clearly got the wrong end of the stick there - my advice was to hold firm and go after work. I'm just pointing out that the recruiter suggesting making up an excuse to go in the day is common enough and not really a big deal.

I have seen people fired for taking paid time off to go to job interviews, only an idiot would commit gross misconduct and have that on their references for some speculative job interview lol.

This is like some no true scotsman argument - you apparently work with idiots, I'm sorry to hear that. But again lying or concealing the fact you're going for an interview in the day is incredibly common - you're again rather over emphasising the "gross misconduct" aspect.. and tbh... if that was a real worry then how hard is it to book a hygienist appointment at some nearby dentist too?

If you honestly don't understand the difference between a contractual matter like a non-compete agreement and a criminal matter like fraud then you shouldn't be giving any sort of advice.

Now you're getting ridiculous... "a criminal matter" - I nearly spat my tea out... back in the real world, yes people do lie about going for interviews, it is pretty common and that's why the recruiter suggested it in the first place...

I'd suggest that you're being very anal and unrealistic here but as already pointed out there are easy ways around it like actually booking a dental appointment etc.. if you were paranoid about being caught out.

 

[Energize]

You are totally missing the point.

Lying to an employer about going to a job interview is a non issue. Claiming a job interview as a medical appointment so you get paid for it will get you fired by any employer and is a criminal matter. No different to claiming expenses that you didn't incur. No one wants to hire someone making false expenses claims.

You come off as someone with no employment experience and your advice is quite frankly dangerous to employees.

 

[dowie]

You are totally missing the point.

Lying to an employer about going to a job interview is a non issue. Claiming a job interview as a medical appointment so you get paid for it will get you fired by any employer and is a criminal matter. No different to claiming expenses that you didn't incur. No one wants to hire someone making false expenses claims.

You come off as someone with no employment experience and your advice is quite frankly dangerous to employees.

You come off as someone not living in the real world and you're constructing arguments against things that haven't been said.

And not I'm not totally missing the point, you are as you've had to add in additional things to argue against. Where did anyone suggest claiming false expenses?

I think there could be some confusion if you perhaps work in some low skilled job where you're paid by the hour or something?

I'm simply referring to people taking a longer lunch break - how does that involve false expense claims etc..?

This isn't rocket science - if you usually eat at your desk or take half an hour and one day you take a an hour and lie about where you were then so what?

And again if there is some risk of getting caught then nothing stopping you from booking a dental hygienist appointment etc...

For the sake of confusion and in order to avoid further hyperbole from you I'll state that I'm assuming an employee paid an annual salary not an hourly wage and I'm not suggesting that anyone start submitting false expenses. If someone were to take a longer lunch break to attend an interview then you'd generally work a bit later (or perhaps you work later or don't take your usual lunch break as a matter of practice anyway so meh...).

Also, to clarify, my advice to the OP is to hold firm and not go during the day in his situation, I'm simply commenting that it isn't exactly uncommon and the recruiter suggesting it is doing so because of that... and no it isn't a big deal, the nonsense you're throwing in about fraud/false expenses etc.. is just you arguing against some point you've made up yourself.

 

[Energize]

You are now contradicting yourself, one moment you are saying a longer lunch break is something many people can't do, now you say that was all you were suggesting.

This is like some no true scotsman argument - you apparently work with idiots, I'm sorry to hear that. But again lying or concealing the fact you're going for an interview in the day is incredibly common - you're again rather over emphasising the "gross misconduct" aspect.. and tbh... if that was a real worry then how hard is it to book a hygienist appointment at some nearby dentist too?

It's called honesty and integrity. It's something expected of everyone working in the public sector as the taxpayer doesn't like being defrauded strangely enough...

If someone is claiming pay that they are not entitled to that is gross misconduct and will get them fired by any employer, happens on a daily basis.

 

[dowie]

You are now contradicting yourself, one moment you are saying a longer lunch break is something many people can't do now, you say that all you were suggesting.

Nope, again read what I wrote, you're yet again arguing something different:

As for taking a longer lunch break - I have that as an example, however not everyone is in the position to do so without explanation - if someone does give an explanation then they’ll probably lie or be evasive, it’s much more risky in most cases to openly state that you’re going for an interview elsewhere than to lie about going for an interview.

To clarify - you might explain why you took a longer lunch break!

Of course if you can't generally take a longer lunch break then you might need an excuse for being out of the office in the middle of the business day.

This, again, is a common issue for people who want to attend interviews which is, again, why the recruiter suggested it in the first place!

It's called honesty and integrity. It's something expected of everyone working in the public sector as the taxpayer doesn't like being defrauded strangely enough...

I think this is the issue, you're saying I'm not living in the real world but it seem that actually you aren't and you're talking about things you don't have experience of. Which might explain why you're conflating things like being away from your desk and submitting false expenses???

Back in the private sector you don't advertise that you're going for an interview! (you also don't necessarily clock off at the exact end of your shift and submitting expenses has little relation to what hours you worked but rather is related to things you've spent money on in the course of business!)

 

[Energize]

The OP said a recruiter who I'm assuming is an employee of the company (but maybe not) was suggesting he claim he was at a medical appointment because the OP said he has no leave to take.

Now if you work at a crap employer as you seem to do where you don't get paid for that then that's fine.

But at any decent job where you get paid for medical appointments that would amount to fraud, thus gross misconduct and potential summary dismissal. That is where the confusion seems to be arising from.

 

[fullspizz]

I had a recruitment agency pushing me to accept a skype video call from them when I was at work.
I told them my work schedule and when I would be off, but they got back and said they were busy on the days I was off. I politely informed them that if they were that bothered, they would schedule the call around a time that suited both of us.
I don't mind going out of my way, but this person would not budge.
Needless to say, I haven't heard back.

 

[dowie]

The OP said a recruiter who I'm assuming is an employee of the company (but maybe not) was suggesting he claim he was at a medical appointment because the OP said he has no leave to take.

Well there do exist internal recruiters but most are external so while possible I'd certainly not make that the default assumption.

Now if you work at a crap employer as you seem to do where you don't get paid for that then that's fine.

But at any decent job where you get paid for medical appointments that would amount to gross misconduct. That is where the confusion seems to be arising from.

Again you're adding in things that haven't been argued for - I did offer some clarification that I'm not talking about pay by the hour jobs or low paid jobs where people clock off after a "shift" etc.... apparently you are - how do you get "paid" for a medical appointment exactly otherwise?

IME my jobs have been salary and bonus and I've generally worked way more than the contracted hours as I value the bonus and progression. How am I getting paid for a medical appointment if I were to take a longer lunch break one day or pop out for an hour one afternoon... I'm not (nor have I been since a teenager - an hourly worker or clocking off at some exact time as perhaps you do in the public sector etc..).

You're arguing against some argument you've proposed yourself not something proposed by me. It seems you work in the public sector and your entire concept of work, what expenses are and how people get paid in other fields is somewhat warped.

 

[Energize]

I dont work in the public sector anymore but being paid an annual salary I am expected to work a contracted minimum number of hours a week, if I have a medical appointment this counts towards my hours worked thus I am "paid" for medical appointments, indeed it's pretty much impossible for me to take unpaid time off as my benefits include paid time off for almost any eventuality.

In the public sector flexitime schemes are the norm these days so there is no clocking off as such but medical appointments need to be added on system as paid leave.

 

[dowie]

Well I've said nothing about fraudulently claiming for expenses etc..etc.. and IME certainly in finance and in the tech sector, employees who are salaried and have bonuses tend to work more than their contracted hours. AFAIK this is common in accounting, law, marketing, consultancy etc..etc.. while your contract might state 37.5 hours a week, 9-5:30 with 1 hour for lunch etc.. you'll find that in reality plenty of employees don't take the full hour for lunch and might well finish at say 6 or 6:30 etc..

If someone usually takes 30 mins for lunch but one day takes an hour or an hour and a half etc.. and mentioned some excuse for it then mostly no one is going to care, they're not defrauding anyone (in the sort of case I'm talking about). I've never had to record/log a medical appointment or dental appointment etc.. at most you either tell or e-mail your boss to say you'll be late one morning or will be away form your desk for a bit one afternoon etc..

So this has nothing to do with fraudulent expenses( no idea where that came from) nor being paid for a medical appointment. If you're in a job where you just work your set hours, clock off at some exact time and have to log medical appointments etc.. in order to be paid the correct amount etc.. then you're projecting a bit as that isn't the norm for plenty of other salaried workers.