Running in...please pass.

RiPz said:
I also like the features that are appearing in some cars recently which lower the rev limit until the engine is warmed up.. not during the run-in period, but throughout the life of the car.. good feature, though i bet lots of people hate it :P
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Likewise, it's a good idea
 
Simon said:
General public don't even know a car needs warming up though.
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But as [TW]Fox said, his BMW manual says not to 'let the car warm up' just drive away when you start up. My 306 manual said the same if i recall.
 
tonyyeb said:
But as [TW]Fox said, his BMW manual says not to 'let the car warm up' just drive away when you start up. My 306 manual said the same if i recall.
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Yeah so it's cold when people drive it, hence they tell people not to rev it too much etc. I'd guess it's a simple blanket statement that is avoiding confusion.

Once the car is up to temperature there is no problem using the engine hard.
 
Even for those people that do let the engine warm before "ragging it", how many of them judge this by the water temp? By the time the water temp is fully up to the middle mark in mine, the oil is still only 1/2 to 2/3 of the way there.
 
My take....

Personally I run in every new car I have ever owned or been given and will never change from this approach as it is what I have be brought up on by my father. In the same way I always dip the clutch when I start any car or never exceed 3000RPM until the oil is fully up to temperature, it is all about mechanical sympathy.

There tends to be 2 camps, the one which I sit in says run them all in the other says run them hard from new and they will perform better and I can see both sides. Some race engine builders prefer the latter, but then they have no interest in longevity where road car manufacturers do. I can't remember a car I have owned that states in the manual that "running in is not needed". Most actually have a proscribed process and some, like the E46 M3 have a very rigid process, including a running in service at 1,200 miles, something I do on all new cars anyway.

I tend to keep the revs low, no more than 3000 RPM for the first 200 miles, then I add 500RPM every 100 Miles. It is one of those things, I have always done this and stand by it. I also never labour the engine or hold it at constant revs for prolonged periods during run in. So when on a Motorway I would vary my speed and gears to ensure a good mix of engine revs.

Each to their own, but I am yet to loose an engine, gearbox or clutch on any car I have ever owned from new, or bar 1 Sierra many years ago, any car I have ever owned so I must be doing something right. My first E46 M3 is at 150,000 miles now (I did the first 56K of those) and I am told by the current owner it has just needed a new clutch, so not too bad with that HP and many track days!

God, I hope I have not just tempted fate :rolleyes:
 
Stephen B said:
Are you suggesting from cold you wheelspin it from your driveway and every consequent roundabout and junction to your destination, ignoring speed limits and the likes ?
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Don't be daft.

:)

Incidentally, there's a theory amongst Honda people that oil consumption is reduced on cars that have been worked hard from the word go. Honda engines are designed to drink a little oil, but stories about oil consumption vary considerably. The difference (although not 100% proven, yet) appears that the cars driven hard from the outset use less oil.
 
merlin said:
Don't be daft.

:)

Incidentally, there's a theory amongst Honda people that oil consumption is reduced on cars that have been worked hard from the word go. Honda engines are designed to drink a little oil, but stories about oil consumption vary considerably. The difference (although not 100% proven, yet) appears that the cars driven hard from the outset use less oil.
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cant agree with that one, I owned a 2.2 Prelude VTEC for over 3 years , it was my bosses car which he owned from new up to 80k when I bought it, I was of the opinion he was the average type of driver with a decent car, in that he didn't drive like a hooligan but was always looking for the opportunity to nail it whenever he could.

When I got my hands on it, lets just say I wasn't as well controlled as he was, being in VTEC was a riot and I found it immensely difficult to drive it sedately.

While I had this vehicle I had to get a replacement car for the missus who drives about 10 miles a month :), a bloke at work was selling his 5 year old Civic with 80k on the clock and that poor car had seen a hard life I can tell you, it was driven mercilessly from 10k by him, I reckon he is the most agressive driver I have met. Anyways we bought it and stuck another 18k [3 years] on it before we sold it on, the oil consumption on that car was normal [about half a litre every 5k], my VTEC used about 2-3 times that, which I put down to a more powerful engine, there was never any indication of blue/black smoke from exhaust, and was still pulling like a champ when I sold it at 120k.

So there you go 2 Hondas, both driven hard but neither showing the remarkable non use of engine oil you quote [to be fair I've heard this before elsewhere]

Being involved in engineering since my mechanical apprenticeship some 25 years ago I guess I fall into the mechanically sympathetic group when it comes to cars.

oh and you never did state which level of "ragging" you rated yourself, I'm guessing somewhere in between :)
 
Stephen B said:
Seeing as this particular debate is going nowhere between you two ^^^

Can you quantify "rag the nuts off" ?



Or merely enjoy the full acceleration range of the engine when the opportunity presents itself on your journey [this I would find unlikely and severely limited as the performance of a Subaru will surpass practically all speed limits pretty rapidly]
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Rag the nuts of to me is as above, i have no shame in admitting i have behaved like a stupid boy racer before, its things we all do and subsequently grow out off, (well sorta)

Even for those people that do let the engine warm before "ragging it", how many of them judge this by the water temp? By the time the water temp is fully up to the middle mark in mine, the oil is still only 1/2 to 2/3 of the way there.
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Thats why semi sporting motors are fitted with oil temp guage's
 
I recently ran in a new BMW 163ps 2.0d engine. Oil consumption was quite high so after 60hours at 4000rpm and 100% throttle the oil consumption dropped right down, certainly did it no harm
 
Simon said:
I recently ran in a new BMW 163ps 2.0d engine. Oil consumption was quite high so after 60hours at 4000rpm and 100% throttle the oil consumption dropped right down, certainly did it no harm
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Every BMW I have owned has burnt oil in the first 2000 miles or so, then bar my first M3 has never drunk a drop after that. Most cars will burn a little oil during the running in phase.

Editied because I think I read it wrong before :eek:
 
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merlin said:
Incidentally, there's a theory amongst Honda people that oil consumption is reduced on cars that have been worked hard from the word go. Honda engines are designed to drink a little oil, but stories about oil consumption vary considerably. The difference (although not 100% proven, yet) appears that the cars driven hard from the outset use less oil.
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Also supported by this link, provided in the original running in thread I linked to earlier:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Basically advocates loading the engine as early as possible (once warmed through) to properly seal the piston rings and prevent "blow-by", which reduces power and increases oil consumption.
 
tonyyeb said:
Did you read the bit from the ford owners manual its says - Avoid labouring the engine.



It says vary the speed - that should be enough to vary the rpm.



Like fox says his BMW manual says DONT warm up the engine. I think my 306 manual said that as well so thats not true.



Hmmm i disagree. I think the majority would.

You have yet to prove your claim of:



I think this is a silly statement. I would love to know the figures of cars 'killed' by owners by FOLLOWING the owners manual instructions!
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A lot of manuals say, dont labour the engine, vary the rpm and dont exceed 60mph in the first 1000 miles...

Yes I understand you know what labouring the engine means, but you are a petrol head...

I could go out and drive a car in first gear and comply with all the instructions given in my friends toyota manual.... and kill the engine...

Common sense obviously applies, but I make my point... and he doesnt have a rev counter on his car either...

I didnt say people DO kill their cars, I said they COULD...

I think you are just arguing the toss for the sake of it, I know what reality is, I was just making a point...

As for not warming the vehicle up first, no you dont need to, but it will improve the running in process... if you dont warm the car up properly, ever during the running in process, ie including driving it, (think about pulling away from cold and driving a few miles to work and back in the evening during winter) you increase the risk of excess acids in the oil which can do a lot of harm to the engine... and if the full operating temp isnt maintained for a decent period, then those acids wont be burnt off and the parts will not be fully matched by the time you hit 1000 miles and decide to cane it... thereby negating any effort you made during the 1st 1000 miles...

The best way to run in an engine is the same as we run in our race engines... warm up properly, take the car for a run, varying the rpm, and gradually increasing, using all throttle settings but shifting up early... gradually increase the periods of increased throttle and rpm over the first 500 miles, then drive as normal...

I have run in pretty much every car I have ever had new this way... and most of them have now done well over 100,000 miles and still run sweet... My Citroen GSA did 200,000 miles before it had issues, and that was thrashed for most of those 200,000 miles... eventually the valve guides gave out....

Anyway its a pointless argument, as we are of opposing viewpoints and I was talking HYPOTHETICALLY not reality...

;)

PS I suggest you do some research on the effects of not warming a car up properly regarding excess acids in the oil and the effect this has on some of the nice ally components in your engine, such as bearing shells, pistons, cylinder heads etc...
 
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Dr Who said:
Yes I understand you know what labouring the engine means, but you are a petrol head...
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Thanks ;)

Dr Who said:
I didnt say people DO kill their cars, I said they COULD...
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Just admit that the statement:

"if you follow the manufacturers running in instructions to the letter, you can kill most cars within a few hundred miles..."

Is not true at all. If you follow the instructions you are more likely to have a working car after the run in period - which is the opposite of what you said.

Dr Who said:
I think you are just arguing the toss for the sake of it, I know what reality is, I was just making a point...
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I'm trying to point out you made a silly statement which clearly isn't true. Until you admit that your statement is false then i will continue to argue it with you. Everyday folk may read this thread, see your 'point' and think "Oh no! Ive followed the instructions and i could have killed my car".

Dr Who said:
PS I suggest you do some research on the effects of not warming a car up properly regarding excess acids in the oil and the effect this has on some of the nice ally components in your engine, such as bearing shells, pistons, cylinder heads etc...
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I might just do that. I've not heard about that before but i take your word for it and ill read up on it. Ill also be sending an e-mail to BMW and ask why they recommend not warming the engine before a journey. Thanks.
 
tonyyeb said:
I might just do that. I've not heard about that before but i take your word for it and ill read up on it. Ill also be sending an e-mail to BMW and ask why they recommend not warming the engine before a journey. Thanks.
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Warming up a car by letting it idle is worse than simply driving off straight away. The car will take ages to warm up and will be running rich whilst doing so. This causes bore wash (petrol strips the bores of oil) and increases fuel dilution in the oil.
 
Simon said:
Warming up a car by letting it idle is worse than simply driving off straight away. The car will take ages to warm up and will be running rich whilst doing so. This causes bore wash (petrol strips the bores of oil) and increases fuel dilution in the oil.
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Hi Simon. Do you work for BMW? I want to know why BMW tell owners to do the above. Thanks for your post.

EDIT: Sorry if that sounded abrupt. Thanks for your answer. I love this forum. I am learning new things everyday.
 
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tonyyeb said:
Hi Simon. Do you work for BMW? I want to know why BMW tell owners to do the above. Thanks for your post.

EDIT: Sorry if that sounded abrupt. Thanks for your answer. I love this forum. I am learning new things everyday.
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No don't work for BMW. Most car manufacturers say to drive the car immediately and not let it warm up. Some do reccomend 10seconds of idle on turbocharged engines though.
 
Simon said:
General public don't even know a car needs warming up though. Once an engine is up to temp some normal driving will be fine. Normal depends on the driver of course but ragging a new engine is not too much of a problem.

I would take it easy on the brakes and clutch though
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So maybe you could tell us why that particular manufacturer recommends limiting the revs for a period?
 
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