Save the NHS!

The solution for the above is NOT to recruit from abroad, which is exactly what will happen.
The problem is governments and the spending by governments is limited in scale, and massive sections of our society, pensions, health, social care, education, defence need to be constructed on 15/20/25/30 year plans.
Even if we get rid of the deficit, and pay off the national debt, there is no forward thinking or future planning.

They need to start with education, and training, and increase places at universities and the associated GP training programs. It'll take 10 years to see the benefit, but it needs to start now, there needs to be investment where needed, and this will have direct benefits to the entire health system over time.
Rather than a patchwork billion here, billion there.
Same goes for pensions and social care, the two should be linked. Costed over the next fifty years, and then a determination taken on just how we are going to go about paying for it. As I have no clue. They can't keep upping the retirement age in the hope people are actually useful in life at an older age, when loads will be dropping with long term complaints, dementia, and an inability to do their chosen line of work in older age, due to the factors associated with older age.

Good luck finding any party willing to even attempt such a strategy. But if we're going to get ourselves into debt over something in the next ten years this is what it should be, as it'll mean things are costed for the next and the following generation, so they know where they stand.

I fully believe people should have to contribute before they should be able to reap the benefits of any system. Meaning natives as much as anyone entering a country.
 
It would be interesting to see the numbers of how many doctors British universities train each year and whether this is actually enough, or if a significant number of British doctors end up working abroad.
 
Castiel said:
Well, best they simply privatise the whole thing. It's the right thing to do if you look at it from a purely cold, scientific perspective.
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Yes I listened to a prog on Radio 4 that said the American system was over medicating 80% of the population and some 10% to their detriment in health. This report was from the US Govt medical overseer(can't remember what his office is called) The conclusion was that because it was in industry oriented there was every reason to overprescribe and carry out unnecessary operations.
With 30% of the population not covered and with state medical help very limited as few hospitals will accept Medicaid patients. It is best, for the ordinary citizen, they don't privatise it.
I was talking to an American pastor about the differences in the health systems and he told me his wife got Medicaid when she was diagnosed with kidney stones but they had to pay to get them removed.

As far as the NHS goes you never know how valuable it is .... until you lose it to the industry wide boys.

Simply put...If you can afford it then you should get the best treatment, if you can't then you have got to question the persons value to the state in the first place, if the persons value is reasonable then the state weighs that against the persons cost to value ratio and treatment is based on that ratio.
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Persons value to the state ? What are you suggesting?? Putting someone you don't think as valuable in a concentration camp or shooting them?? Denying them treatment???
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
The solution for the above is NOT to recruit from abroad, which is exactly what will happen.
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It's the same with nursing. One of our friends wants to return to the profession. Due to the limited funded places (ie non-existent) then she has to stump up a grand for the privilege of having arguably the worst professional job going in terms of rewards. However, a nurse coming from abroad always gets a free conversion program. So we are actively financially discriminating against British trained and qualified staff who have actual experience in the system.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-32202587

NHS A&E performance at lowest level for decade. I thought this chart was particularly telling:

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Yes it is a distortion of the facts, the target isn't a great ideal as it takes no account of overall people seen.
Numbers seen up.
Numbers seen in under 4 hours up.
Numbers seen in more than 4 hours up.
Ratio worse.
 
Aye well in Norn Iron, we managed to be the worst consistently, and we don't have any political parties at all, just a few tribes throwing insults at each other and blocking change.
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
Yes it is a distortion of the facts, the target isn't a great ideal as it takes no account of overall people seen.
Numbers seen up.
Numbers seen in under 4 hours up.
Numbers seen in more than 4 hours up.
Ratio worse.
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You talk as if failure to adequately plan capacity is acceptable - it isn't. Imagine if the lights went out because the National Grid weren't able to cope with an increase in demand. Would that be OK? Compound this with the reasons why there's been an increase in demand are all as a result of coalition policy changes - the 111 service, cuts to social care, GPs etc and you haven't got a leg to stand on.

The reason I don't mention Wales is because I don't live there, and these findingst, which there was a report about on the BBC News front page this morning is about NHS England.
 
More than 140 top doctors attack government record on NHS: http://www.theguardian.com/society/...0-top-doctors-attack-government-record-on-nhs

“As medical and public health professionals our primary concern is for all patients. We invite voters to consider carefully how the NHS has fared over the last five years, and to use their vote to ensure that the NHS in England is reinstated,”
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Basically they're saying if you want to keep the NHS and make it better, vote anyone but Tory.
 
platypus said:
And vote whom exactly? I know you like it up there on your soapbox, but no one has a credible plan to fix the NHS.
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I don't think anyone even understands the full extent of the damage caused by the Health and Social Care Act 2012 yet.
 
Moses said:
The head of NHS England says they need an extra ~£8bn/year by 2020... neither of the two main parties are saying they'll spend that much - the Lib Dems are, but obviously they won't win outright. I'm not sure if the positions of Lab/Tories have changed since the debate, though.

I wonder what the top doctors would say about the NHS in Wales...
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Well this is part of the trouble isn't it? Scorza in particular likes nothing better then posting constant drivel bashing the Conservatives, yet where is the alternative? I know he's jumped on the UKIP bandwagon but he's not stupid enough to think they offer a credible alternative.

The constant rss feed bashing the Conservatives whilst wearysome is simply one aspect of it. It's not looking great for the future of the NHS, and the real problem is there isn't a credible party to save the NHS. It's not a tory problem, or a labour problem, or a whoever problem.
 
Another issue is that the NHS cannot be saved by money alone. Its going to crumble not due to lack of money but the unhealthiness of the UK people. Chuck more money at it and it might stumble on for another 20 years until it collapses in an even more spectacular fashion.

Listening to the attitudes of people who have smoking, drinking, drug and obesity problems make it super clear that a lot of them don't give a **** and will continue to cost the NHS huge amounts for as long as they live. Its a losing battle and just giving a huge amount in extra funding won't fix that.
 
Thats because in the eyes of some people if we need to spend X on something then we will just do it and obviously that money will appear out of thin air.
 
fez said:
Another issue is that the NHS cannot be saved by money alone. Its going to crumble not due to lack of money but the unhealthiness of the UK people. Chuck more money at it and it might stumble on for another 20 years until it collapses in an even more spectacular fashion.

Listening to the attitudes of people who have smoking, drinking, drug and obesity problems make it super clear that a lot of them don't give a **** and will continue to cost the NHS huge amounts for as long as they live. Its a losing battle and just giving a huge amount in extra funding won't fix that.
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that and modern medicine is forever finding new cures to diseases that would potentially have caused you to die before.

This treatments invariably cost the NHS money, which is more money to spend than they would have spent in previous years.

The simple fact is that the cost of running the NHS is going up, and unless somebody stops that, its going to keep on growing and fall apart at some point.
 
fez said:
Another issue is that the NHS cannot be saved by money alone. Its going to crumble not due to lack of money but the unhealthiness of the UK people. Chuck more money at it and it might stumble on for another 20 years until it collapses in an even more spectacular fashion.

Listening to the attitudes of people who have smoking, drinking, drug and obesity problems make it super clear that a lot of them don't give a **** and will continue to cost the NHS huge amounts for as long as they live. Its a losing battle and just giving a huge amount in extra funding won't fix that.
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Indeed. The sad fact is that it is an unsustainable model.
 
This is why it is broken:

  • Dr X converts a house in to a GP practice at a cost of ~£50,000
  • Dr X sells the practice to Dr Y (his brother) for a cost of £250,000
  • Dr X rents the practice from his brother at a cost of £3000 pcm
  • Dr X claims the rent + utility costs from the health board
Dr X is £200,000 richer and Dr Y charges as much rent from his brother as he wants, to make back the £50,000 (on the basis that he'll get it back from the health board anyway). The health board also pay his wages.

This is not directed at GPs at all, but you have to wonder why health boards don't clamp down on this sort of loophole :confused:
 
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