Save the NHS!

[Minstadave]

The BMA has to address the pay issue because that is what the new contract is all about. More antisocial hours for the same pay, less hours protection meaning more chance of unpaid work, a restructuring of pay progression and non resident on call pay.

The contract is about pay, the strike is about pay. That's not to say there's not a patient safety issue too - but there's nothing wrong with standing up to the government on this purely on the basis of pay and working conditions.

 

[Tunney]

You don't think 4,000 ops in a single day, nearly 25% of the total for a quarter, is significant?

The doctors strike is clearly not the biggest non-clinical reason for operations being cancelled at the last minute. 4,000 is not the scandalous figure you make it out to be - especially when there's long-term benefits to patients from the strike.

 

[Dolph]

The BMA has to address the pay issue because that is what the new contract is all about. More antisocial hours for the same pay, less hours protection meaning more chance of unpaid work, a restructuring of pay progression and non resident on call pay.

The contract is about pay, the strike is about pay. That's not to say there's not a patient safety issue too.

There is an identifiable and measurable patient safety issue caused by the current contracts meaning it is not cost effective to offer an equally effective 7 day NHS.

Nothing about, for example, tenure based pay increases, or antisoccial hours pay, relates to patient safety.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Has Gove beaten Burham's NHS bodycount yet?

 

[Danthus]

There is an identifiable and measurable patient safety issue caused by the current contracts meaning it is not cost effective to offer an equally effective 7 day NHS.

If you are referring to patient mortality, an A&E Consultant I spoke to this morning questioned the validity of those numbers.

Nothing about, for example, tenure based pay increases, or antisoccial hours pay, relates to patient safety.

Again, non of the junior doctors I spoke to this morning ever mentioned pay, or hours, they all spoke about the contract and the implications for patient safety.

Jeremy Hunt wants the doctors to do more for the same, he is spreading the resource thinner.

Where is in his proposals does he increase the amount of nurses, radiographers, phlebotomist to complement the weekend working.

The "Seven day NHS" strap line is rubbish, the NHS already provide a seven day service.

 

[Dolph]

If you are referring to patient mortality, an A&E Consultant I spoke to this morning questioned the validity of those numbers.

Since when do anecdotes trump research?

Again, non of the junior doctors I spoke to this morning ever mentioned pay, or hours, they all spoke about the contract and the implications for patient safety.

Jeremy Hunt wants the doctors to do more for the same, he is spreading the resource thinner.

Where is in his proposals does he increase the amount of nurses, radiographers, phlebotomist to complement the weekend working.

The "Seven day NHS" strap line is rubbish, the NHS already provide a seven day service.

I cited the bma website, rather than anecdotes. Also, I specifically mentioned an 'equally effective' 7 day NHS, which the weekend skeleton service doesn't provide.

I am trying to engage here, citing the relevant documentation. If you want to change my view, you need to actually engage with justifying the stated aims and objections of the bma, rather than random, unverified anecdotes from unnamed sources.

 

[Danthus]

It is telling what you didn't address in my post.

 

[Destination]

Do you have private health cover Dolph?

 

[Dolph]

It is telling what you didn't address in my post.

The part about spreading resource thinner? This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Current demand is bunched together due to supply decisions, it doesn't follow that extending normal staffing levels will keep the current demand profile. Nor does anything imply that the current staffing levels are the correct and most efficient ones in terms of either demand or facility usage.

 

[Varwen]

I'd like to add that the unions are striking because the govt. even refuses to LISTEN to their concerns, let alone do anything about them. They asked to negotiate, but the offer was refused.

ONE DAY before the last planned strikes the government then changed it's tone and said "okay, let's talk", then slammed the unions for refusing to cooperate.

In an NHS where doctors are crucified and hung out to dry for making honest mistakes, how is it fair to force unsafe working hours for those responsible for your treatment?

I'm not in London today - I'm at work for 12 hours taking blood samples in a GP surgery. If I wasn't trying to ensure my surgery's patients receive the best care I and the rest of our team can possibly manage, I'd be marching too.

 

[Dolph]

Do you have private health cover Dolph?

Yes, I also pay additional tax for reducing the demand on the NHS

let's see what fallacy this irrelevant info is used for.

 

[Danthus]

The part about spreading resource thinner? This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Current demand is bunched together due to supply decisions, it doesn't follow that extending normal staffing levels will keep the current demand profile. Nor does anything imply that the current staffing levels are the correct and most efficient ones in terms of either demand or facility usage.

And the part about radiographers etc etc.......

 

[Varwen]

I'd like to add that the unions are striking because the govt. even refuses to LISTEN to their concerns, let alone do anything about them. They asked to negotiate, but the offer was refused.

ONE DAY before the last planned strikes the government then changed it's tone and said "okay, let's talk", then slammed the unions for refusing to cooperate.

In an NHS where doctors are crucified and hung out to dry for making reasonable misdiagnoses (no, medicine is not as clear cut as most people seem to think), how is it fair to force unsafe working hours for those responsible for your treatment? Truck drivers aren't allowed to drive for more than 9 hours a day because any more is considered an unnecessary accident risk - why are doctors not afforded the same privilege? They're only human too...

I'm not in London today - I'm at work for 12 hours taking blood samples in a GP surgery. If I wasn't trying to ensure my surgery's patients receive the best care I and the rest of our team can possibly manage, I'd be marching too.

 

[Dis86]

Can someone explain, have these high hours and crap shift patterns just started suddenly in recent months/years?

 

[Dolph]

I'd like to add that the unions are striking because the govt. even refuses to LISTEN to their concerns, let alone do anything about them. They asked to negotiate, but the offer was refused.

ONE DAY before the last planned strikes the government then changed it's tone and said "okay, let's talk", then slammed the unions for refusing to cooperate.

In an NHS where doctors are crucified and hung out to dry for making honest mistakes, how is it fair to force unsafe working hours for those responsible for your treatment?

I'm not in London today - I'm at work for 12 hours taking blood samples in a GP surgery. If I wasn't trying to ensure my surgery's patients receive the best care I and the rest of our team can possibly manage, I'd be marching too.

The problem is, the refusal to engage isn't necessarily unreasonable, and to claim otherwise is to risk an argument to moderation fallacy.

Just because someone objects to something, it doesn't follow that a compromise must be the solution.

The bma, as cited earlier, are being just as stubborn in their demands for maintaining the status quo.

 

[Danthus]

The BMA were happy months ago to use ACAS, who refused that idea?

 

[Buddy]

The part about spreading resource thinner? This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Current demand is bunched together due to supply decisions, it doesn't follow that extending normal staffing levels will keep the current demand profile. Nor does anything imply that the current staffing levels are the correct and most efficient ones in terms of either demand or facility usage.

Despite current staffing levels pretty much any junior I know regularly doesn't leave on time (unpaid) - and you think spreading them thinner is going to make is safe?

At least there are some level of safeguards at present. If those are removed the trusts will abuse juniors.

How can you think that tired exhausted doctors is safe care? Have a look at a proposed rota I posted a few pages back to get an idea. There will be no continuity of care.

I really don't understand your sentence about demand. Demand is increasing year on year.

 

[Dolph]

Despite current staffing levels pretty much any junior I know regularly doesn't leave on time (unpaid) - and you think spreading them thinner is going to make is safe?

At least there are some level of safeguards at present. If those are removed the trusts will abuse juniors.

How can you think that tired exhausted doctors is safe care? Have a look at a proposed rota I posted a few pages back to get an idea. There will be no continuity of care.

I really don't understand your sentence about demand. Demand is increasing year on year.

I wouldn't object to fines for nhs trusts that breach the hours. That isn't what the bma want however.

As for demand, I am talking about demand profiles, not total demand.

 

[casaubond]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCoals View Post
If you are referring to patient mortality, an A&E Consultant I spoke to this morning questioned the validity of those numbers.
Since when do anecdotes trump research?

Since the research was approved by ''independent '' sir Bruce Keogh. His main issue at the moment revolves around the fact his names has been missed from the honour list this year - no Lordship- and Hunt is having him by the balls.

It is really a shame he ''prostitutes'' himself to the government in this way. I've attended a conference last year in Manchester chaired by him, extremely intelligent and knowledgeable doctor, clinically top notch.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...gnation-of-nhs-medical-director-a6803171.html

 

[Varwen]

The problem is, the refusal to engage isn't necessarily unreasonable, and to claim otherwise is to risk an argument to moderation fallacy.

Just because someone objects to something, it doesn't follow that a compromise must be the solution.

The bma, as cited earlier, are being just as stubborn in their demands for maintaining the status quo.

Nobody is suggesting that we want to work three day weeks for triple pay - we're saying that given the state of the NHS at the moment, this is a step in the wrong direction. Not only is it the wrong direction, but it moves into "this is completely unsafe and is an accident waiting to happen" territory.

We're not holding a ransom note, we're asking not to be forced into risking our entire career by making mistakes caused by unsafe working practices.

We're not opposed to change and I think we'd be the first to admit that the NHS is crumbling and can't continue as is, but we ARE opposed exposing our patients to unnecessary risks. There's a difference, and with that being the case, a discussion isn't an unreasonable expectation to have.