Save the NHS!

[waspy88]

GP's are killing the NHS, ridiculously overpaid, overqualified and underpracticed. Years training them to do a job the majority of them never even come close to doing. 7 years learning how to treat hundreds, thousands of conditions, surgery rotations, emergency rotations, etc, etc, and the majority of GP's won't do anything beyond CP for the rest of their career's.

Then Labour massively overpay them, then they are too selfish to merely be overpaid by a pretty massive amount so decide to take action over the ridiculous government pensions being cut back because the country can't ******* afford them. At least good that GP's were the lowest in numbers to support it but, they are still the biggest problem. Plenty of other doctors getting way too much as well.

As bad as benefits leechers, once someone gets something, because they WERE entitled to it through some massive mistakes in policy, people come to think of that as the baseline of what they deserve and complain through the teeth.

We can't afford the pensions the public sector threw out, 50% leaving pay as a pension + a payout is just, unsustainable, especially with doctors who will retire usually on a VERY healthy salary.

This really is the most misinformed post I have ever read on these forums. Do you actually know what is involved in diagnosing someone? GPs have to rely on years of experience, referring back to scientific principles in every manner of work they do every day. Furthermore they have to continue to learn read and be appraised of new procedures, medicines and developments. It is without a doubt one of the most taxing careers in this country. Most GPs work rediculously long hours (In exceess of 50hrs a week) then there is the studying ontop, with not many holdiays a year too.

There is also the threat of being sued and malpractice ontop of this if something goes wrong or you do not diagnose a patient correctly. Doctors will always be paid a high salary and it is fully deserved. Most GPs do not just do their local practice work too, they specialise; train students in later life give lectures etc.

Healthcare is expensive whichever way you look at it. Even in India a by-pass operation will set you back £30,000 including your stay at a hospital. But we do to certain extent subsidise it with our NI, but it is not enough.. the competition of doctors and talented professions will continue to rise, however the NHS makes this country one of the best in the world, where your wealth is not at threat of being diminished for having a genticially pre-disposed illness in later life.. America is a stark warning of how life could be.

 

[Danthus]

........as opposed to the NHS where the current setup creates an incentive to not treat them.

What exactly is that incentive?

 

[shadow_boxer]

GP's are killing the NHS, ridiculously overpaid, overqualified and underpracticed. Years training them to do a job the majority of them never even come close to doing. 7 years learning how to treat hundreds, thousands of conditions, surgery rotations, emergency rotations, etc, etc, and the majority of GP's won't do anything beyond CP for the rest of their career's...

What a load of rubbish! You obviously have no idea about GP training or training in healthcare in general. As it currently stands training is a minimum of 5 years from date of qualification from medical school and GP training specifically is 3 years! How can a GP who has only 5 years experience of working as a doctor be expected to recognise systoms/signs, treat patients and effectively manage a huge range of conditions if he/she hasn't done any speciality training? I think you must have come across some poor GP's to be honest if that is personal experience as the best GP's I've come across (in a professional manner) are those who often spent many many years before becoming a GP in other specialities or at the very least working as junior doctors/SHO's/registrars in areas such as Orthopedics, Paediatric and O&G.

 

[scorza]

...and a similar poll taken from people who had recently used the NHS still had high satisfaction. all the poll you quote tells us is about a very small sample of the populations sentiment about the NHS which is largely down to how the media portrays it rather than how it actually runs.

Why didn't the government ask the ever growing number of people on NHS waiting lists what they thought?

 

[Vern1961]

Biggest single issue with the NHS IMHO is actually getting to see the GP, or even getting past the receptionist at least where our local surgery is concerned.

I won't post exact details as I know we're not allowed to discuss personal illness etc., but here's an example. Been struggling for the last few weeks with an infection which seems to have been taking a grand tour of my body. Finally got so bad at the weekend I went down to the local walk-in clinic where a pee test confirmed the infection (though still waiting full results) and given some antibiotics.

However that's where the fun starts. Was told to arrange a follow up appointment with GP ASAP to check on progress. Went down to the surgery yesterday to make an appointment for Thursday/Friday to be told they only "do" appointments for the current week from 0800 on the day concerned, first come first served. I also mentioned the AB's were having some fairly severe nausea side effects which at least coaxed the promise of a callback later on from the doctor. When the call came, not very helpful - I patiently explained the history and what I was now experiencing to be greated with a long pause and a, "Erm but they are good antibiotics" though." No offer to review the prescription or any suggestion as to how to mitigate the nausea (I got that off Dr Google temporarily last night and some non prescription anti nausea tabs off the chemist this morning).

This morning I ring the surgery to make an appointment for next week to be told they have two left, neither of which was suitable as I expect to be back at work then and my employer, like most these days, treats you like a naughty child if you start taking too much time off even for confirmed illness. So appointment now two weeks today.

I'm kind of hoping when I do see the Doctor in a fortnights time I'll get a full report on what the infection was, the offer of a further pee test to check it's gone, perhaps a blood test to check electrolytes are okay hey maybe even a kidney X-ray to check there's no damage. I wish. I bet I have to thump the table for each and every one of those, looking all the time at the sign which says please don't abuse our staff.

That I'm afraid is the shop window of the NHS in 2012. Maybe it's my particular surgery and they just have too much on the go, but if you want to start putting the NHS right - that's where it has to start.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

I won't post exact details as I know we're not allowed to discuss personal illness etc.,

We are allowed and some of us do but we're not allowed to tell you how to cure it except for 'Go see a Doctor'.

 

[joxang]

I won't post exact details as I know we're not allowed to discuss personal illness etc., but here's an example. Been struggling for the last few weeks with an infection which seems to have been taking a grand tour of my body. Finally got so bad at the weekend I went down to the local walk-in clinic where a pee test confirmed the infection (though still waiting full results) and given some antibiotics...However that's where the fun starts. Was told to arrange a follow up appointment with GP ASAP to check on progress. Went down to the surgery yesterday to make an appointment for Thursday/Friday to be told they only "do" appointments for the current week from 0800 on the day concerned, first come first served.

Some busy GP surgeries are like that - they only have so many man hours and so many slots. If it's an emergency - e.g., you've taken Abx for a few days and they aren't helping, you still have a high fever that won't go down, etc etc - then you can make an emergency appointment. GPs have to offer daily emergency appointment slots, it's simply a matter of getting down there early in the morning just as after they open.

I also mentioned the AB's were having some fairly severe nausea side effects which at least coaxed the promise of a callback later on from the doctor. When the call came, not very helpful - I patiently explained the history and what I was now experiencing to be greated with a long pause and a, "Erm but they are good antibiotics" though." No offer to review the prescription or any suggestion as to how to mitigate the nausea (I got that off Dr Google temporarily last night and some non prescription anti nausea tabs off the chemist this morning).

Abx often have side-effects, mostly severe diarrhea. Nausea is listed but isn't common, but there's not much you can do about it. You can't just change the prescription. Abx are specifically prescribed based on region, local trust and infection type.

This morning I ring the surgery to make an appointment for next week to be told they have two left, neither of which was suitable as I expect to be back at work then and my employer, like most these days, treats you like a naughty child if you start taking too much time off even for confirmed illness. So appointment now two weeks today.

Then who's fault is that exactly? You expect the NHS to timetable everything around you? They had two slots available...

I'm kind of hoping when I do see the Doctor in a fortnights time I'll get a full report on what the infection was, the offer of a further pee test to check it's gone, perhaps a blood test to check electrolytes are okay hey maybe even a kidney X-ray to check there's no damage. I wish. I bet I have to thump the table for each and every one of those, looking all the time at the sign which says please don't abuse our staff.

Aside from the urine dipstick, all of those are pretty strange suggestions to be making. GPs will always send you off for the tests you need. If they don't, and something goes wrong, they get their asses sued off. If for some reason (google, entitlement etc) you think you want those investigations, then go private and pay for them yourself :|.

That I'm afraid is the shop window of the NHS in 2012. Maybe it's my particular surgery and they just have too much on the go, but if you want to start putting the NHS right - that's where it has to start.

You really sound like private care would suit you.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Do you mean the fatso's who acquired it all on their own?
A basically preventable disease?

I'm 13 stone, 6ft, have a body fat percentage of 8% and I mountain bike, climb and canoe. A do not drink sugary drinks, I eat mainly fresh meat and vegetables and avoid processed foods. I don't eat deserts or sweets.

I developed type II diabetes last summer.

Tell me, how exactly could I have prevented it?

 

[Vern1961]

Then who's fault is that exactly? You expect the NHS to timetable everything around you? They had two slots available...

Obviously not, just seems strange that by Tuesday of the previous week all but two of the pre-bookable appointments for the next week are gone. I already mentioned my employer and as I work shifts in a control environment I cannot just up and leave the desk for 90 minutes to visit the doctor. There aren't spare staff to cover.

you think you want those investigations, then go private and pay for them yourself :|.

You really sound like private care would suit you.

Old chestnut, I *am* paying for my NHS via National Insurance plus various taxes, a rather huge amount each month. I already pay private (Denplan) for dentistry and for the optician. However I cannot afford or wish to pay private for my primary health care. Now whether some sort of NHS "Gold" where you pay (say) £30 to get a prompter appointment (rather than going fully private) is a good idea or not is probably one to discuss in Speaker's Corner!

I do hear where you are coming from but this is not the first bad experience both my wife and myself have had with the surgery over the years. The general atmosphere which goes right through all levels there is an unwillingness to really help - it is, after all, supposed to be a place of healing!

 

[shadow_boxer]

Snip...

100% agree with everything you said!

 

[joxang]

I'm 13 stone, 6ft, have a body fat percentage of 8% and I mountain bike, climb and canoe. A do not drink sugary drinks, I eat mainly fresh meat and vegetables and avoid processed foods. I don't eat deserts or sweets.

I developed type II diabetes last summer.

Tell me, how exactly could I have prevented it?

I don't think he was referring to what you have. 'Type II' diabetes isn't really a specific pathology, it's more a 'symptom'. I.e., you have high blood sugar that's 'acquired' as opposed to 'Type I' diabetes, which is a pathology you were 'born with'. Diabetes can be acquired due to many, many things e.g. genetics, alcoholic disease, autoimmune pancreatic disease, pancreatic tumours, but by far the most common is the complex metabolic disease found in overweight patients.

But the term 'Type II' is also used to refer specifically to the last of the above, the commonest form, and I think Hikari was referring to 'Type II' in this more common usage.

So if a doctor says you have 'Type II', all he probably means is that you have high blood sugar, and that you weren't born with the pathology. But if anyone else or a newspaper says 'Type II', they probably mean the specific metabolic condition .

Old chestnut, I *am* paying for my NHS via National Insurance plus various taxes, a rather huge amount each month. I already pay private (Denplan) for dentistry and for the optician. However I cannot afford or wish to pay private for my primary health care. Now

That still doesn't justify demanding extra unnecessary investigations because you feel like you need them, and then castigating the NHS for refusing to provide them to you...

People need to understand that the NHS isn't 100% efficient and isn't 100% perfect, but will by and large do things very well indeed. Don't expect miracles like getting to see a doctor in A&E minors in 30minutes, or getting a GP appointment in the exact 1hour slot you'd like. All it takes is a bit of compromise and less feeling of entitlement. You're paying beans for the service compared to what you'd be paying in other countries, and getting better service too (trust me, I've been there) .

 

[mikeh501]

I reckon the Americans I work with have far better healthcare than I do in the uk. I know there is inequality but for a professional it's far far superior. The company pay approx 10k dollars a year per person which covers there entire family and includes dental and a bunch of other stuff. I think if we were to abolish the 1/3 rd of taxes we pay annually for the NHs I could find that 10k easily.

 

[stockhausen]

I reckon the Americans I work with have far better healthcare than I do in the uk. ...

Perhaps they do . . . right up until the time they get a serious chronic condition.

... I know there is inequality but for a professional it's far far superior. ...

And preventing this inequality is EXACTLY why the NHS exists and is so admired by many, even amongst healthy working professionals whose private health care is funded by their employers.

... I think if we were to abolish the 1/3 rd of taxes we pay annually for the NHs I could find that 10k easily.

Yes, perhaps you could and depressingly, in an environment where "there is no such thing as society", selfish attitudes such as that are deemed normal and acceptable, even laudable

 

[Irish_Tom]

I think if we were to abolish the 1/3 rd of taxes we pay annually for the NHs I could find that 10k easily.

And what about the millions of UK Citizens who couldn't find that £10k, easily or otherwise?

 

[mikeh501]

And what about the millions of UK Citizens who couldn't find that £10k, easily or otherwise?

So I get the fact not everyone could afford it; but inst that where we could have some kind of state provided insurance which is provided to those, and only those out of work? I still think this would be far more cost effective than what we have now.

The bulk of tax in this country comes from those earning over the 40% threshold and if you were to reduce the tax burden by fully 1/3rd an awful lot of people would be better off, and if (by magic) the health sector was private like the US then we would have a better system.

Nothing is perfect, but our system is far far from perfect; in fact I think for the most part the NHS exists for itself rather than the patients.

Now, once thats done, if we can reduce the other 1/3rd tax burden on the country we might start getting somewhere; yes social security.... ~170b per year

Does anyone really think that 1/3rd of ALL tax generated needs to be healthcare? and a further 1/3rd to social security. Its utterly crazy.

 

[RDM]

So I get the fact not everyone could afford it; but inst that where we could have some kind of state provided insurance which is provided to those, and only those out of work? I still think this would be far more cost effective than what we have now.

So you have a health system that only works for those either out of work or earning lots of money? How incredibly perverse...

The bulk of tax in this country comes from those earning over the 40% threshold and if you were to reduce the tax burden by fully 1/3rd an awful lot of people would be better off, and if (by magic) the health sector was private like the US then we would have a better system.

For a small number of people...

You are aware of the point of Universal Health Care provision? It is so everyone can afford healthcare, not just the rich or the very poor.

Nothing is perfect, but our system is far far from perfect; in fact I think for the most part the NHS exists for itself rather than the patients.

Whilst our system is (very) far from perfect the last thing we want to do is move towards a worse system (i.e. the US). We should instead be looking towards the better systems and see how they do things.

 

[Craterloads]

We should be proud of the NHS, poeple around the world are envious.

Yes there are improvements to be made and savings to be made, but in essence what the NHS stands for is perfect.

 

[RDM]

We should be proud of the NHS, poeple around the world are envious.

Other than those with better universal health care provision...

Yes there are improvements to be made and savings to be made, but in essence what the NHS stands for is perfect.

Holding the NHS up as some sort of sacred cow is one of the problems with our system. Any changes at all are met with howls of derision and cries of "They are killing the sacred cow!"

See the recent survey linked in this very thread, the actual service being provided by the NHS seems to be relatively stable but because someone has dared suggest changes suddenly there is a massive fall in satisfaction (based on 1000 people asked randomly who may or may not have actually used the NHS in the period in question....).

 

[Craterloads]

Other than those with better universal health care provision...

Holding the NHS up as some sort of sacred cow is one of the problems with our system. Any changes at all are met with howls of derision and cries of "They are killing the sacred cow!"

See the recent survey linked in this very thread, the actual service being provided by the NHS seems to be relatively stable but because someone has dared suggest changes suddenly there is a massive fall in satisfaction (based on 1000 people asked randomly who may or may not have actually used the NHS in the period in question....).

Yes but you have to remember who it is that is suggesting changes. Its like the "no fly zone" over Libya, before you know it were a private army for hire.

If it was anyone other than the Torries suggesting changes i think a lot would be more comfortable.

And i did say, if you missed it.

Yes there are improvements to be made and savings to be made