Save the NHS!

[Hatter The Mad]

Because the 'first' time you're not actually paying for it directly for yourself – you're paying a small amount so that everyone can enjoy the benefits of state services (not just the NHS).

Actually, that's never explicitly been the case has it? It used to come out of the national insurance element. Only over the last few decades have we blurred the lines between your national insurance paying for your national insurance and a common tax pool

 

[Irish_Tom]

Actually, that's never explicitly been the case has it? It used to come out of the national insurance element. Only over the last few decades have we blurred the lines between your national insurance paying for your national insurance and a common tax pool

The whole system has been reformed numerous times over the last 100 years.

What's your point?

 

[Irish_Tom]

It's hardly a small amount if I haven't used the NHS for anything significant.

I did address it in multiple different posts to different people, you have just failed to spot it. In the USA I get a much superior level of health care for a similiar cost (as long as I'm not ill literally 24/7), so why is that not better for me? Not only is the level of care better it's also more personal too.

You're failing to see that it's not just about you.

If you don't have a car, you still pay tax which goes towards the upkeep of the nations roads. If you don't use a train, you still pay tax which goes towards the upkeep of the railways.

Just because you personally don't use a state service, does not mean that you personally should not make a tax contribution to the running of the state in which you live.

 

[Irish_Tom]

I'm not failing to understand anything, your point is so basic it's hardly a stretch to grasp it.

It's you who is miserably failing to understand what I'm saying. My point is simple (not for you though), I would prefer the choice and there's nothing wrong with that.

All these state services create a sheltered environment where bad attitudes and lazy people thrive, the free loaders. At some point in your life you have to be selfish if you ever want to achieve more than the average person.

You're right, there's nothing wrong with wanting choice, but you do have a choice; You either chose to use the NHS or you chose pay extra for private healthcare.

You said you wouldn't chose to pay extra for the private healthcare but are bemoaning the NHS. If you don't like a service that's put in place for the benefit of everyone, pay the extra for a more personalised service.

By the sounds of it, you already have achieved more than the average person because you're in a position to be able to afford private healthcare (whether you chose to do so or not).

I'm saying that you shouldn't scrap a system designed for everyone, just because you are lucky enough to be in a position not to rely on it.

Alternatively, lets privatise everything in the whole country and burn those that can't afford it in our power stations instead of coal.

 

[Daff_Duck]

I'm not failing to understand anything, your point is so basic it's hardly a stretch to grasp it.

It's you who is miserably failing to understand what I'm saying. My point is simple (not for you though), I would prefer the choice and there's nothing wrong with that.

All these state services create a sheltered environment where bad attitudes and lazy people thrive, the free loaders. At some point in your life you have to be selfish if you ever want to achieve more than the average person.

Well said! Having worked in the NHS for a number of years the amount of waste and downright incompetence in management at very senior level is unbelievable - the public need to spend a week in the NHS and see the blatant nepotism, and disregard for "value for money" plus the attitudes of these no hopers to realise that their money is being squandered in such a way.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Alternatively, lets privatise everything in the whole country and burn those that can't afford it in our power stations instead of coal.

That's not the alternative. You need to calm down, it is clearly an emotive issue for you and is clouding your ability to rationalise.

 

[joxang]

Jesus H Christ. The amount of entitlement...

Just because you aren't well off or well employed it doesn't mean you don't work for crying out loud!!! My parents both used to be self-employed cleaners earning minimum wage. They worked 12 hours a day and took a decade to save enough to put down a deposit on a house. Absolutely no way they could have afforded health insurance for themselves or for me. Did they, or people in a similar situation, not deserve healthcare? Let's just face up to the fact that people simply have different viewpoints towards life. I think healthcare should be universal, and people with the ability to pay for extra should be able to get extra. But frankly, I find some of the snobbishness in this thread unbelievably obnoxious.

Especially from people who

(1) have absolutely no understanding about medicine

(2) then complain that they aren't getting investigations and procedures (that they read off Google) from doctors (as opposed to what they actually need), and refuse to pay for those things privately because they feel that the NHS should cater to the uneducated whims of individuals

(3) are entitled enough to claim, totally matter of factedly and without shame, that they should be catered to like lords simply because that's their right

and

(4) who think **** anyone who can't afford it.

Seriously...they must live in their own little bubble or something. Just unbelievable.

 

[joxang]

I think this reply suits you even more so than who it was intended for.

Yeh true, I have strong feelings on this issue, but please tell me where I'm being irrational?

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

You mean a job?

Utter tosh

Thousands upon thousands of US citizens who have worked hard their entire life paid tax's PLUS paid for life insurance are also getting shafted by scummy health insurance company's, they dilute and in some cases point blank refuse coverage claiming small print, loop holes ..etc And you want that sort of health care in this country?

 

[Raumarik]

Well said! Having worked in the NHS for a number of years the amount of waste and downright incompetence in management at very senior level is unbelievable - the public need to spend a week in the NHS and see the blatant nepotism, and disregard for "value for money" plus the attitudes of these no hopers to realise that their money is being squandered in such a way.

nepotism? Just how many health boards have you work for because I've never seen that outside of a GP practice having worked in the NHS for around 5 years. The health board is incredibly strict with regards to recruitment, but inside GP practices there's mums, sons, daughters all working together. I'm not saying it's a bad thing but several practices I know of have one of the doctors wifes working for them etc. That's not controlled by the NHS though, as GPs are essentially private companies.

I can't disagree with waste though, I see it most days in the deadwood staff that aren't removed, procurement is a joke and staff wanting new looking equipment even though the current stuff works fine, but just looks a little dated.

 

[estebanrey]

It's nothing to do with luck, it's to do with the fact that I've worked my arse off and made good decisions career wise so far. So excuse me if I don't want to drag the rest of the **** in Britain along with me.

Oh come on there is some luck involved. There are also some industries that pay far more than others because of the industry rather than how much 'hard work' you put in. A merchant banker can make more in an hour than a picture framer with a lot less 'work'. Also one industry can be full of money when you decide you want to do and train for it and then be a struggling market by the time you 'make it'.

We don't have anywhere close to a true meritocratic system. yes capitalism contain meritocracy as part of it, but it also includes things like 'market forces' having 'friends in high places' etc etc.

I've worked in various corporate environments over the last 10 years and I can tell you that pure hard work and talent have little to do with promotions which tended to be made more based on who was the bosses' favourite than who actually 'deserved' it.

 

[steve-h]

You're failing to see that it's not just about you.

If you don't have a car, you still pay tax which goes towards the upkeep of the nations roads. If you don't use a train, you still pay tax which goes towards the upkeep of the railways.

Just because you personally don't use a state service, does not mean that you personally should not make a tax contribution to the running of the state in which you live.

The state shouldn't have services. Let capitalism do its thing.

Why should you have your money taken by force and given to something you don't even use... or for that matter, something you do use. Free markets would fill these gaps, we do not need government filling them.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Why should you have your money taken by force and given to something you don't even use... or for that matter, something you do use. Free markets would fill these gaps, we do not need government filling them.

I don't think that philosophy can be applied to everything, because the free market won't suffice in some cases (like Royal Mail and the universal stamp price).

However, in the most part I do believe that the government should simply be a cash machine and where possible, private companies should bid to deliver the services.

 

[steve-h]

I don't think that philosophy can be applied to everything, because the free market won't suffice in some cases (like Royal Mail and the universal stamp price).

There's plenty of private delivery companies who I'm sure would be delighted to fill the gap of the royal mail. Perhaps I'm missing something.

However, in the most part I do believe that the government should simply be a cash machine and where possible, private companies should bid to deliver the services.

Why do you think government should choose where your money goes? What even makes you think they should have the right to tell you where your money goes? The whole concept is completely immoral and does nothing but promote a lack of personal liberty, responsibility and sluggish business, no?

 

[Irish_Tom]

I'm perfectly rational and I haven't missed any point – if anything, wanting something but refusing to pay for it on the grounds that you pay tax (and then slating the system your taxes have paid for) is irrational.

I'm not suggesting that the NHS is perfect, I'm well aware that it's wasteful in places but it also does a good job for people who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford the same level of healthcare.

Suggest improvements to the NHS by all means, I'm not suggesting that we're not allowed to complain; but to replace it entirely with a regressive system is not the answer.

Which would you prefer:

Pay NI, never call on the NHS but contribute to society, or pay medical insurance, never call on it but line the pockets of the insurance company?